Any plans to improve diplomacy?

[bonesaw]

As an EUIV player, diplomacy in Rome 2 (even with the amazing DEI!) is...lacking.

I know, BFO, but in my current game Carthage is at war on all fronts, beaten back to the Balearic Islands, and...still won't make peace. I won't keep beating on the CAI diplo problems we all know so well, but beyond poor AI decisionmaking, the options themselves are pretty limited. I would love the ability to warn expanding powers, guarantee the independence of OPMs (ones that I don't want to conquer / CS), and build alliances or coalitions based on shared interests.

Are they any plans for something like this? What are the modding capabilities to even make anything like this happen?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Adding and removing diplomatic options has never been, and will likely never be an option. We just don't have the tools for it.

[bonesaw]

Got it. What about changing how the CAI evaluates current diplo options?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Some of that has been changed, for instance how the ai determines when to surrender. You can thank Yukishiro for that, and the details are in another thread here on the front page.

The best we can do is change weights and values for what the ai will and won't accept, and when it will or won't accept.

[Dresden]

Actually we reverted that change due to your reports And other tester reports of strange AI behavior asking for peace and declaring war repeatedly.

[bonesaw]

Damn. You guys have really done the gods' work with this mod -- battles, building/unit options, agents, graphics...what you've done on all these incredible.

Yet, to me, the major thing missing from vanilla is a world in which the CAI makes realistic or, in many cases, rational decisions about alliances, wars, and things as simple as trade. Why would Athens not want to trade with Rome on Turn 1 (when Rome is no threat)? Why would Massilia not see common cause to make a defensive alliance with Rome against Gallic barbs? Why would Gaetuli and Massysili (sp) refuse to break treaties with a crumbling Carthaginian Empire that is dragging them down with it? It's maddening.

None of this is a dig on you guys -- just a rant about vanilla. CA delivered a base game with some parts that were pretty shiny but definitely left a lot on the cutting room floor when it comes to gameplay.

[zonks40]

Damn. You guys have really done the gods' work with this mod -- battles, building/unit options, agents, graphics...what you've done on all these incredible.

Yet, to me, the major thing missing from vanilla is a world in which the CAI makes realistic or, in many cases, rational decisions about alliances, wars, and things as simple as trade. Why would Athens not want to trade with Rome on Turn 1 (when Rome is no threat)? Why would Massilia not see common cause to make a defensive alliance with Rome against Gallic barbs? Why would Gaetuli and Massysili (sp) refuse to break treaties with a crumbling Carthaginian Empire that is dragging them down with it? It's maddening.

I think the reason being that if a trade offer is accepted, including non aggression pacts and alliances, it gives a bonus to relations between the two factions, so if it were too easy to obtain these diplomatic options, everybody may end up as one big happy family, which is not an ideal situation for a war game, it would certainly make the game easier.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Actually we reverted that change due to your reports And other tester reports of strange AI behavior asking for peace and declaring war repeatedly.

Oh, right. I forgot about that reversion.

[balparmak]

Well I remember someone tried to mod the diplomacy so that taking cities/defeating armies of enemy gave positive bonuses in agreements which made it more likely for beaten AI to offer/accept peace. I don't know whether that resulted in anything significant though, that was loong ago. A bit like warscore system of paradox' games, probably not doable but still an option.

[FlashHeart07]

As zonks so nicely points out making the game too realistic might cause it to become way too easy for the player. Numerous trade agreements and non-agression pacts will leave the player with a huge income and no real threats until he chooses to unleash his armies upon the world. This is total war and it should be so. If I was to decide there wouldnt be things like diplomacy it would just be war.

[Dresden]

I am probably in the minority but I actually think vanilla has done a decent job of getting diplomacy to an okay spot in the most current version of Rome 2. But, you have to remember, diplomacy is very subjective in terms of what a player wants. Some want the AI to be rational and even peaceful unless provoked. Others want the AI to be very warlike and untrustworthy.

I personally like an aggressive AI that will also remain a loyal ally if properly treated and worked with, since that makes the most realistic sense. In DeI we have tried to create complexity and difficulty out of other campaign systems so that the difficulty of the game is not reliant on an AI that will declare war because they got bored. But, I have also created a more hardcore submod for those that prefer more action and war on a consistent basis.

[HateDread]

I am probably in the minority but I actually think vanilla has done a decent job of getting diplomacy to an okay spot in the most current version of Rome 2. But, you have to remember, diplomacy is very subjective in terms of what a player wants. Some want the AI to be rational and even peaceful unless provoked. Others want the AI to be very warlike and untrustworthy.

I personally like an aggressive AI that will also remain a loyal ally if properly treated and worked with, since that makes the most realistic sense. In DeI we have tried to create complexity and difficulty out of other campaign systems so that the difficulty of the game is not reliant on an AI that will declare war because they got bored. But, I have also created a more hardcore submod for those that prefer more action and war on a consistent basis.

Out of curiosity, which submod is that, and what does it do, generally speaking?

[GourmetGorilla]

Out of curiosity, which submod is that, and what does it do, generally speaking?

Here it is. It's effects are detailed in the description, although the part about tech times being doubled is inaccurate since he removed that part for now.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ardcore-Submod

I'd highly recommend giving it a try!

[HateDread]

Here it is. It's effects are detailed in the description, although the part about tech times being doubled is inaccurate since he removed that part for now.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ardcore-Submod

I'd highly recommend giving it a try!

Looks cool, but I'm already getting smashed on 'Normal' with the vanilla DEI settings :p Will try it eventually. Thanks, though!

[bonesaw]

I am probably in the minority but I actually think vanilla has done a decent job of getting diplomacy to an okay spot in the most current version of Rome 2. But, you have to remember, diplomacy is very subjective in terms of what a player wants. Some want the AI to be rational and even peaceful unless provoked. Others want the AI to be very warlike and untrustworthy.

I personally like an aggressive AI that will also remain a loyal ally if properly treated and worked with, since that makes the most realistic sense. In DeI we have tried to create complexity and difficulty out of other campaign systems so that the difficulty of the game is not reliant on an AI that will declare war because they got bored. But, I have also created a more hardcore submod for those that prefer more action and war on a consistent basis.

Yeah, I think that's all fair, Dres. I guess what would be nice -- regardless of whether you want the AI to be tough but loyal or insanely warlike -- is more detailed insight into why the AI is making the decisions it's making. At the risk of sounding like I'm shilling for PDS, have folks checked out the current diplomacy system in EUIV? Different style of game, I know, but it does the best job of any game I've playedd of making clear why the AI is willing to accept/reject your deals and what your options are to effect AI decisionmaking.

[FlashHeart07]

I believe it is located in the submod thread. Find it there and there should be a description on what changes it has

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Comparing any of the Paradox grand strategy games to TW is apples and oranges.

Total war games simply don't have the mechanics in place for diplomacy like that. It's likely they never will.

Strategic espionage and diplomacy is one of the campaign level sacrifices TW games make to focus on the real time combat aspect.

There simply isn't anything to be done about it.

That being said, I was never a fan of EU or CK, the HoI games are my go to Paradox titles. (HOI 4 SOON!!! )

You can sit and talk about any of the EU games all day, it'll never help a TW game.

[gdwitt]

I have been playing with variations of Chamloo's original diplomacy mod for a year.
Basically, the cai_personalities table has a column deal_evaluation component.
Setting nearly all those values 2 steps higher will result in about twice as many trade agreements.
I put everyone on friendly and have 3 times as many deals.
Even "friendly" celts will still refuse trade for the entire game, so this isn't the only relevant variable.
I think this and the related deal tables are options that DEI should seriously test and consider.
There are so few diplomatic options in-game that you might as well just build and conquer.
State gifts in the game are basically pointless. You get 0-11 points and it rarely seems to depend on what you donate.
Bringing back diplomacy will, to me, be the biggest improvement DEI can contribute at this point.

I see the "hardcore" submod above and I greatly disagree with this approach.
DEI has loads of great scripts that players with minimal spare time would like to experience.
Making the game too elongated makes it futile to play on a weekend afternoon.
I think the developers should consider a "softer" version that is will encourage many others to jump aboard.

[GourmetGorilla]

I see the "hardcore" submod above and I greatly disagree with this approach.
DEI has loads of great scripts that players with minimal spare time would like to experience.
Making the game too elongated makes it futile to play on a weekend afternoon.
I think the developers should consider a "softer" version that is will encourage many others to jump aboard.

That's why it's an optional sub-mod. The base mod is already the softer version.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

You can get trades when you have resources that the ai doesn't have. That's one of the biggest factors in determining trade acceptance. This is pretty realistic.