The 2 remaining faction slots

[NosPortatArma]

Just to clear that up: While the nabateans start as a nomadic faction at the beginning of the timeframe of eb they rise to prominence during the late hellenistic age. During their whole time the convergence point of many trade routes ( the Incense Route being the most important of them) was petra. Their late kingdom was pretty big (just look at google images) and some historian (don't know the name right now) said that they where the richest people in the world. They also were masterful hydro engineers. Just look where petra is. It's in the middle of the desert. They weere also Hellenized but if you look at the tombs in ancient petra you will find many different influences.
I don't know that much about the saba but the Himyarites who where the late power on the arabian peninsula also styled themselves as kings of saba so they are quite important.
If you want to know about those interesting people look at the eb preview:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Preview-Arabia

Maps I found on google shows the nabateans only controlled what amounts to 2-3 provinces in EB2. That's about the size of the potential Massila stretching from emporion to liguria plus corsica. Just to clear, I'm not dissing the other factions like nabateans or lugiones, I'm just saying that Massilia is in the same league as them, powerwise.

I personally think there are already more than enough Hellenistic factions in game at present. There were tons of other prolific and highly independent peoples during this era. EB2 has already added several more Hellenic factions than before, and several non-hellenic factions have reforms that thoroughly Hellenize them(eg. the nabataeans). As well, the KH represent a number of highly independent city states which, while individually not strong enough for a faction, together can be considered as one and somewhat tries to represent the chremonidean league which fought against antigonos gonatas. For the philhellene there is more than enough to sate your hunger, in my perhaps unneeded opinion.

I also think that these last two faction slots should be instead used to demonstrate a new culture and people. I'm sorry, but the Hellenes just weren't the only culturally significant, militarily powerful and technologically advanced culture during this time period. As great a people they were, stretching as far west to the eastern coasts of spain and as far east as baktria and eventually india. Occupying significant portions of coastline around the Mediterranean and black sea, Hellas herself and the bulk of former persian territories, which is a large portion of the map--most of which EB2 factionally demonstrates. Outside these areas, however, areas like the interior of hispania, northern italy, gaul, germania, britain, the furthest southern reaches of the nile, arabia, the baltic etc etc etc. the hellenes have almost no significant populations, military forces or cultural presence there. And to say that: "That's because the Hellenes were too smart to colonize these provinces with harsher climates, they were much better at choosing sites for colonization and etc." is a bit far fetched and prejudice at best.

I also don't think the starting positions of either massalia or syracuse are very good. Especially that of Massalia, that would make the map in that area far too crowded. I've found the very strong eleutheroi presence in eastern spain and massalia's territory are more than enough to demonstrate the independence of the Hellenes in game.

Again, this is just my two cents on the matter.

I don't agree that area is too crowded. It is less crowded than Illyria or Thrace, and about as empty as the area where the belgae would be (those being other canditates). Any thracian or illyrian faction would have to be right next to another faction, directly bordering them. Massilia would be completely surrounded by rebels. From mastia along the coast to liguria is all rebels, and much of the inland is also rebel. Taking into acount that the provinces in that area are small, its one of the emptier places on the map.

edit: To show that the area around Massilia is emptier, here is a map I've made. Eremos is black, provinces owned by a faction are red, provinces directly bordering an owned province are yellow, and provinces not bordering any owned province are green.
Attachment 333526
As you can see, the really empty areas are: northeast arabia, morocco, south indus, north britannia, scandinavia, bretagne (none of these places have any strong candidates) AND Massilia, emporion, gallia cisalpina, north illyria, and belgae (these places have strong cadidates). When it comes to the argument about crowdedness, Massilia has the strongest case, because it's the most empty region -according to this metric atleast- which still has a plausible candidate. Massilia doesn't only border yelloy provinces, but also one green, making it more empty than where the blegae would be.

[QuintusSertorius]

Has anyone ever tried migrating a Hellenistic faction to Syrakousai or Massalia? I can tell you from experience, that starting out there as a one-province faction is not a lot of fun. Massalia is about waiting for the day that AI-Rome decides to wipe you out, regardless of diplomatic relations. Syrakousai is the same again, only you also have the Karthadastim looking to do the same. Neither is a viable position unless you plan to blitz Rome from the start.

[NosPortatArma]

Has anyone ever tried migrating a Hellenistic faction to Syrakousai or Massalia? I can tell you from experience, that starting out there as a one-province faction is not a lot of fun. Massalia is about waiting for the day that AI-Rome decides to wipe you out, regardless of diplomatic relations. Syrakousai is the same again, only you also have the Karthadastim looking to do the same. Neither is a viable position unless you plan to blitz Rome from the start.

The same could be said for many other factions. Isnt e.g. nabatea just a waiting game until ptolemy decides you are dead? They're worse off than massilia are in that sense. And secondly, I dont think its true. If you take over liguria to catalonia, you are about the size of rome, and could easily win or just contain them. Theres plenty of rebels around to conquer to strengthen you.

Syracuse is another matter though. They are pretty much screwed in that sense.

[myarta]

The same could be said for many other factions. Isnt e.g. nabatea just a waiting game until ptolemy decides you are dead? They're worse off than massilia are in that sense. And secondly, I dont think its true. If you take over liguria to catalonia, you are about the size of rome, and could easily win or just contain them. Theres plenty of rebels around to conquer to strengthen you.

Syracuse is another matter though. They are pretty much screwed in that sense.

In my couple of playthroughs as Nabatu, Ptolemioi and AS mostly fought each other and left me alone. I consolidated in Arabia. Ptol seems content just to take my money. AS started causing trouble in the north on one of my playthroughs. I had to give up a piece of land and some money for peace, but it was better than getting wiped out. Eventually I got so much money from taking over the Saba lands and building mines in a few places that I could defend myself competently.

[NosPortatArma]

In my couple of playthroughs as Nabatu, Ptolemioi and AS mostly fought each other and left me alone. I consolidated in Arabia. Ptol seems content just to take my money. AS started causing trouble in the north on one of my playthroughs. I had to give up a piece of land and some money for peace, but it was better than getting wiped out. Eventually I got so much money from taking over the Saba lands and building mines in a few places that I could defend myself competently.

Indeed, and being on the sidelines of two great empires who fight eachother is a fun challange. Trying to appease both, trying to maintain the balance of power, trading... Massilia is in the exact same position with regards to rome and carthage. That is why i think they would be so fun to play. Massilia arent the only ones being at the mercy of stronger factions, and i quite like that challange also. Its not a con in my view.

[Moros]

In my couple of playthroughs as Nabatu, Ptolemioi and AS mostly fought each other and left me alone. I consolidated in Arabia. Ptol seems content just to take my money. AS started causing trouble in the north on one of my playthroughs. I had to give up a piece of land and some money for peace, but it was better than getting wiped out. Eventually I got so much money from taking over the Saba lands and building mines in a few places that I could defend myself competently.

Imagine what is possible when the hellenistic reforms are finished.

[QuintusSertorius]

Is that a forthcoming unit? I don't see anything like that in EDB presently. Yeah, my point is just that if you play this game for 200 years, in all that time, the Epeiros leaders can't figure out how to train the people in their capital who by now have 90+% hellenization how to form a proper professional phalanx? But that's an overall issue with region flags and there isn't much we can do about that. Too much support for alternative history scenarios quickly gets off the rails, and you have to abide by the flags in 50 BC that were relevant for 272 BC. I personally don't think a 1*0.04 in the single capital with rel_h 85% or 90% is too crazy, something to earn and that would be feasible in an alt scenario where you packed up your capital and culture and moved elsewhere, that the knowledge of how to fight like this isn't lost entirely. But I'm pipe dreaming here, I know

Yes, Agema Phalangitai (ie elite phalanxes) are forthcoming.

While I certainly see your point regarding later in the game, you have exactly that availability (1 * 0.04) of the elite phalanx. Preserving the tradition in the form of the royal guard (along with the other elites in the Basilike Patris) is easily rationalised. It's a bit harder to see that with regulars as well.

Imagine what is possible when the hellenistic reforms are finished.

And the awesome new Nabataean units, too.

[myarta]

Has anyone ever tried migrating a Hellenistic faction to Syrakousai or Massalia? I can tell you from experience, that starting out there as a one-province faction is not a lot of fun. Massalia is about waiting for the day that AI-Rome decides to wipe you out, regardless of diplomatic relations. Syrakousai is the same again, only you also have the Karthadastim looking to do the same. Neither is a viable position unless you plan to blitz Rome from the start.

Hmm. I haven't played Epeiros, so I think I will try this. Syrakousai and Massalia both have a polis, so you will eventually get to build colonies. If you start somewhere without one, you're SOL unless you go capture a land with a polis.

Syracuse is MUCH better situated for getting started, in that it has 70% Hellenic and a Metropolis already, BUT you have Carthage and Rome ready to smack you up. Massalia will also be stuck between a rock and a hard place, but only later on once the Arevaci, Luso, Aedui, or Arverni expand up to your Western/Northern front. Blitzing Rome is especially easy as Epeiros, as you already start with Tarentum.

EDIT: Unless you were specifically looking for single-province starts? I was planning on keeping Tarentum, but giving up the starting lands east of the Adriatic. So I guess it'd be a one province start, just Tarentum, but my army from the "mainland" would be gunning for Syracuse.

[myarta]

Hmm. I haven't played Epeiros, so I think I will try this. Syrakousai and Massalia both have a polis, so you will eventually get to build colonies. If you start somewhere without one, you're SOL unless you go capture a land with a polis.

Syracuse is MUCH better situated for getting started, in that it has 70% Hellenic and a Metropolis already, BUT you have Carthage and Rome ready to smack you up. Massalia will also be stuck between a rock and a hard place, but only later on once the Arevaci, Luso, Aedui, or Arverni expand up to your Western/Northern front. Blitzing Rome is especially easy as Epeiros, as you already start with Tarentum.

EDIT: Unless you were specifically looking for single-province starts? I was planning on keeping Tarentum, but giving up the starting lands east of the Adriatic. So I guess it'd be a one province start, just Tarentum, but my army from the "mainland" would be gunning for Syracuse.

;Basilike Patris (Dynastic Administration)
epeiros7 city requires factions { f_epeiros, } and not building_present govallied and building_present_min_level hinterland_hellenistic_polis polis_two and building_present_min_level colony_hellenistic helcol_two and event_counter ecBuild_epeiros7 1
{
   capability    ;;;    recruitment pool - up to 24 * 0.04 comes from Hellenistic polis and colony buildings, 10 * 0.04 of top tier troops here
   {
      recruit_pool "Oxybeles"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_epeiros, }
      recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry hetairoi"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_epeiros, }
      recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry xystophoroi"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_epeiros, }
      recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry hypaspistai"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_epeiros, }
      recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry makedones peltastai"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_epeiros, }
      recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_epeiros, } and hidden_resource phalangitai
      recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_epeiros, } and hidden_resource hellen1 and not hidden_resource phalangitai   ;temporary measure to give Epeiros some early-game phalanxes

Taras/Tarentum

region_044
    sett_044
    f_epeiros
    Tarentine
    33 196 58
    hr_a, hr_c, hr_e, hr_h, italy, greek1

Syrakousai

region_047
    sett_047
    f_epeiros
    Syrakousioi
    198 178 13
    hr_a, hr_c, hr_f, hr_g, greek1, royal_core

This migration sadly made me give up access to Phalangitai due to the condition being hellen1 and not phalangitai. The Epeiros helper only applies to the starting areas.

Hellen1:

Alexandreia
Ambrakia
Antiocheia
Pella

Phalangitai:

Alexandreia
Antiocheia
Pella

It's probably quite correct not to be able to recruit them anywhere. It makes me sad that they're utterly unavailable, though, unless doing a traditional Greek campaign, despite spending many many decades hellenizing and establishing myself on Sicily. Since there's only one Basilike Patris now, your one homeland for all your greeks, I wonder if it could be given an unqualified access to Phalangitai? Only having one of the building would prevent the spam. It seems like the technique is something that can be learned even if your people have moved to a different region.

[z3n]

Yes Nabatu is liked well enough as a trading partner by egypt and their CAI is meant to focus on the seleukid empire rather.

[QuintusSertorius]

The helcol represents two things; bringing Hellenistic recruitment and training to a place, but also drawing on and adapting what's already available in the region. That's why it varies depending on where you are. The pike wasn't something that made it as far west as Megale Hellas, Pyrrhos' showing in Italy never kicked off any sort of evolution towards it. That's why the only sort you can get are very small numbers of mercenaries.

One thing you would get as a migrated Epeiros if you put your Basilike Patris in Syrakousai is Agema Phalangitai. But the restrictions on the availability of Phalangitai are intentional and done under the direction of the historians. Mercs and lesser phalangites should be the main source of your phalanx, outside of particular areas (Anatolia was a rich source).

[myarta]

One thing you would get as a migrated Epeiros if you put your Basilike Patris in Syrakousai is Agema Phalangitai.

Is that a forthcoming unit? I don't see anything like that in EDB presently. Yeah, my point is just that if you play this game for 200 years, in all that time, the Epeiros leaders can't figure out how to train the people in their capital who by now have 90+% hellenization how to form a proper professional phalanx? But that's an overall issue with region flags and there isn't much we can do about that. Too much support for alternative history scenarios quickly gets off the rails, and you have to abide by the flags in 50 BC that were relevant for 272 BC. I personally don't think a 1*0.04 in the single capital with rel_h 85% or 90% is too crazy, something to earn and that would be feasible in an alt scenario where you packed up your capital and culture and moved elsewhere, that the knowledge of how to fight like this isn't lost entirely. But I'm pipe dreaming here, I know