The 2 remaining faction slots

[alex33]

I just noticed i've totally forgotten to add an iberian faction to the poll. I think hispania is a bit crowded but an iberian faction would also be nice cause we dont have one ingame but we have many iberian units allready

[Rad]

A bit crowded? Too crowded for a fourth faction.

[Doulkus Pontikus]

I'd like to see an Illyrian (maybe the Autoriate?) and an Eastern faction.
A good canditate would be Cappadocia, Kartveli or even the Galatians of Asia Minor.
I know that the area is crowded with factions but we are talking about the richest and more densely populated part of the ancient world.
Plus the Seleucids and Ptolemies should be a little more pressed by enemies.
From my experience Armenia (Haysdan) never poses any serious trouble for the AS, Pontus need too much time to capture the Eleutheroi settlements around the Black Sea and never attacks AS or Ptolemies and Pergamon goes to wr against the Ptolies way too late in the game. The three of them never attack one another. So maybe a new more aggressive faction would change that dynamic.

[alex33]

i think there are too many factions in asia minor already to add another one. the problem is that most factions that surround arche and the ptole's dont really have many units while both of those jugs have a big unit collection. once hayasdan, pontus, pergamon & the nabateans get more units as the mod progresses (like armenian cataphracts) they will be a serious challenge to seleucid and ptolemaic supremacy

[Ryze]

Belgae and another rebel faction.

[Genava]

I think the most important condition for a new faction is to have ruled his native province for a long time and managed a sort of hegemony in its neighborings regions. (According to Oxford, hegemony is a: Leadership or dominance, especially by one state or social group over others.)

With this idea in mind, I did a list with my basic knowledges (then it's only my point of view), showing the good points and the bad points of each, starting by the most suitable:

1. The Scordisci. A celtic tribe formed by the remnants of the gallic attack on Delphi, founding Singidunum (today Belgrade) during the year 278 BC.
++ Powerful tribe in the Balkans at the start of the game, had beat the strongest Illyrian tribe (the Autariatae), stole the region from the natives (Pannonian? Thracian?) and put the nearby Pannonians tribes in a vassality.
++ Strong military hegemony during the 3rd century and the first quarter of the 2nd century BC. In Strabo's Geography book 7, we can read the Autariatae subjugate the Triballi and the main part of Illyria and Thracia before to be themselves vanquished and subjugated by the Scordisci. After that, the Scordisci push forward their conquest to the mountains of Illyria, Thracia and Pannonia and at the end they controlled the major part of the Danube (Isther) in the Balkans. Strabo says the Scordisci turned the territory of the Ardiaei, Dassaretii and Agrianes and other insignificant tribes into a depopulated country of deserted forests by ravaging them again and again.
++ Good political and diplomatic hegemony, they made a strong alliance with the Bastarnes and other unspecified Thracian tribes to keep pressure on the Dardani. Livy, Roman History, XLI.
++ Good resistance against the Romans. It wasn't easy for them to control the region and they even lose a battle against the Scordisci. Good resistance against the Cimbri, they stopped them.
+ Good economical strength by pillaging, by asking possible tributes on the nearby tribes beaten, by controlling the Danube etc.
+ Good position for the gameplay. Balancing the area, too often took by the Romans and the Epirotes to fight between them.
+ Good roster of units, with mainly Celtic and Thracian elements but with some Illyrian and Pannonians regional units.
+ Easy to create, Celtic and Thracian names, Celtic government, Celtic and Thracian buildings. It's not an unknown culture.

2. The Suessiones. A Belgic tribe of western Gallia Belgica. The Belgae tribes seems to coming from the Eastern Europe, like the Volcae. A expert of the celtic history, V.Kruta, seems to think the Belgae migrated in the region known as Gallia Belgica during the fourth or the third century BC.
++ The Belgae are known by Caesar as the bravest peoples among the Celts.
+ The Suessiones were a powerful tribe, having three vassals during the Gallic Wars.
++ Caesar says the Suessiones had a strong king, Diviciacos, who was the strongest king in the whole Gallia at his time and ruled a big part of it and had even ruled a part of Britannia! It was before the Gallic Wars, because at the time of Caesar it seems the Bellovaci had an emergent hegemony among the Belgae. But before, it was the Suessiones and maybe the Remi were a part of them, Caesar saying they had the same government and the same laws in the past.
+ A proposal for their etymology is: those who have taken ownership of their territory (by Françoise Bader). But it's not a consensus.
++ The Belgae had successfully defended their lands against the Cimbri and the Teutones.
+ Strabo says the Suessiones were the bravest tribe after the Bellovaci at his time.
+ It's easy to create, their roster is similar to the Boii and the Gauls. Maybe some mix with the Germans in late game. Their capital is Noviodunum, already implanted as Nouiodunon.
+ Good position for the gameplay as a lot people are asking them for this reason. They can put pressure on the Pritanoi and balancing the area between the Gauls and the Suebi, stopping their awkward empires in early game.
-- It's a new classical Celtic tribe, with a mix of eastern and western Celts. No innovation here.
-- We know nothing about them during the start of the game. It's only speculation. We know they had a strong hegemony and a powerful kingdom before the Gallic Wars (maybe near 90 BC thanks to the coinage), but it's all.

3. The Kingdom of Kartli, the Caucasian Iberia. A young kingdom founded in 302 BC, located in the Georgian regions. Long history among the Persian dynasties and their neighbor the kingdom of Colchis a long history with the Greek colonization.
++ They had early subjugated the neighboring areas and pushing back several invasions.
++ They put the kingdom of Colchis in vassality during a time.
++ Good political hegemony, marriage with Durdzuk princess, Sarmatian chief etc.
++ Rise of a new and efficient government, big cultural projects, new military organization.
+ They successfully had the recognition of the Seleucid Empire as an vassal state.
+ At the start of the game, the kingdom is strong and has a good hegemony.
+ Good economical position near the Black Sea and having a vassal giving access to the maritime commerce.
+ Good roster of units, with Caucasian, nomad and Greek elements.
+ Some interesting resources developed by the Black Shine Team for their RTW mod.
+ Possibility of a strong fusion between the Colchis and the Kartli kingdoms.
- After the foundation of the kingdom and the pacification of the neighborings areas, they never had a new expansion, their biggest size is the one at the start of the game.
-- At the death of Pharnavaz I of Iberia in 234 BC, the kingdom started to lose rapidly his power. A big part of their history is defending themselves against invasions and keeping unity in their kingdom with a lot of civil wars. They lose their vassal state, the kingdom of Colchis.
-- They lose a lot of territories against the Armenians and their own people put an Armenian king on the throne at the end of the 2nd century BC.
-- They were always vassals of a bigger faction. The Seleucids until 190 BC and the Romans after that. It's restraining them from a military expansion.

4. The Ardiaei. An Illyrian tribe well know for their military might during 230 BC under the reign of king Agron and the tentative of Queen Teuta to control the Adriatic sea, stopped by the Romans.
++ Strabo says they were among the strongest Illyrian tribes during his time.
+ They had a military rise during the second half of the 3rd century BC.
++ They had a good navy and their piracy had given them a good control of the sea and a good income.
++ Good ressources on their lands, mining incomes.
+ They won some land battles against the Epirotes and the Romans.
+ Good guerrilla tactics, making their lands hard to rule for the foreigners.
+ Unique culture and faction. Good position on the map. Good strategical use of their navy.
-- They only had a small kingdom and a small hegemony in Illyria. Teuta's expansion was really small in the lands, mostly pillaging and raiding. They even had an internal rebellion before the first Illyrian War. They never federated the Illyrians tribes, they never subjugated the strongest of them, their alliances were weak as several tribes helped the Romans.
-- At the start of the game, the Ardiaei are in the worst position possible. Crushed by the Autariatae and the Scordisci. Their lands are depopulated according to Strabo. The southern tribes of Illyria are vassals of the Epirotes. The north is blocked by the Autariatae and the Scordisci, the east by the Dardani and their Bastarnes ennemies.
- Not a polyvalent roster of units. A lot of light infantry and light cavalry. Maybe medium infantry. Hit-and-run tactics, on land and on sea.
-- Unknown government, unknown language, hard to create.
-- They never ruled the province of Dalmatia or of Illyria Hellenike. Delminium is in the territory of the Dalmatae. Then it's impossible to give them the province as starting point.
- They disappeared after the Illyrian Wars, letting the role of last bastion to others illyrians tribes like the Iapides and the Dalmatae.

5. The Gerrha Kingdom, an arab kingdom.
++ Very good position on the map.
+ Interesting culture.
+ Historical war with the Seleucids.
-- Strong and independant but without real hegemony.
-- Very unknown faction.

6. The Odrysian Kingdom or the Triballi. Rebirth of the Thracian unity.
+ Powerful and hegemonic power in the past, strong cultural unity.
++ The Triballi are the strongest Thracians according to Strabo.
++ Excellent roster with Celtic, Thracian, Dacian units. Superb diversity with all types of units possible, versatility.
+ Long survival of the kingdom.
+ Separately, several tribes had build small hegemonies in their areas.
-- Odrysian Kingdom splitted in three.
-- The kingdom of Tylis are posing a threat at the start of game.
-- The Triballi are weak at the start of the game.
-- The Thracian kingdom never rose again, only a minor role. The Triballi and the Bastarnes were the only ones to be really actives.



I write it again: It's only my point of view and my basic knowledges. Not an authority argument. I can make mistakes and misunderstandings.

and sorry for my bad english...

[HarkonRules]

The Ardiaei are a given in my opinion if we do get the Illyrian faction, that's what I was counting on.

[Cohors_Evocata]

I'm honestly quite surprised the Dardani haven't been suggested yet. They seem to have been rather expansionist, fought Macedonia, Rome and the Bastarnae (the latter having invaded on invitation of the Macedonian king). I'm also quite sure they would have had control of an entire region, in contrast to the Ardiaei who mostly controlled the coastline (AFAIK). Perhaps because they don't fit easily in the usual classification sheme of Balkan tribes (Thracian, Illyrian etc.)

[Genava]

I'm honestly quite surprised the Dardani haven't been suggested yet. They seem to have been rather expansionist, fought Macedonia, Rome and the Bastarnae (the latter having invaded on invitation of the Macedonian king). I'm also quite sure they would have had control of an entire region, in contrast to the Ardiaei who mostly controlled the coastline (AFAIK). Perhaps because they don't fit easily in the usual classification sheme of Balkan tribes (Thracian, Illyrian etc.)

I said in a previous post the three strongest Illyrian tribes are the Ardiaei, the Autariatae and the Dardani. As the Autariatae were at their climax before the EB time frame, the two main possibilities are the Ardiaei and the Dardani. Maybe the Dalmatae but they become strong in late game historically.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14685300

They are more suitable than the Ardiaei, it's right, I choose to evaluate the Ardiaei instead because every illyrian-fan are proposing them for a faction. The main reason is because the Ardiaei are truly Illyrians and the Dardani are Illyrians AND Thracians. The main advantage of the Dardani comparing of the Ardiaei is:
+ The Dardani had an heavy infantry and a medium cavalry, the belt of Selca is a Dardanian object. It's not the case of the Ardiaei and of the costal Illyrians.
+ The Dardani truly ruled a region represented in EB2 as a rebel state. It's not the case of the Ardiaei, their homeland is belonging to the Epirotes... then it's a problem.
+ The Dardani were a strong military power, causing a big threat for the Macedonians.
But there is still some issues with them:
- They weren't really hegemonic, they did what any strong "barbarian" tribes did in the history, ravaging and pillaging their neighbors. They had really small conquests. Politically and diplomaticly, the alliances were against them, the Bastarnae, the Triballi, the Scordiscoi forced the kingdom to be more defensive than aggressive. They never put another tribe in vassality.
- Same issue with the other Illyrians, unknown government, unknown language. It's even harder with the Dardani because we don't know which thraco-illyrian languages they spoke as they are in a cultural border.
- Very very hard position to start. Seriously they are surrounded by the Macedonians in the South, the Epirotes in the West. There is a strong danger in the East by the Getai too. The AI will hardly keep this faction alive more than a few turns.

For this reason I think personnaly they had the same chances to be suitable for the mod as the Kartli (caucasians).

my suggestion to represent the Illyrian faction as a confederation of sorts like the Sweboz still stands.

I don't want to be rude, but it's the problem with your point of view: the Illyrians didn't have a confederation. You can't see the Illyrians as an united faction or an homogenous entity. Sadly they had an hegemonic kingdom only before the time frame of the mod (the Autariatae). The Dardani are a bit more suitable but it's still a defensive kingdom, very stable, but don't forget the main goal of the campaign is to build an "empire". Conquering the Balkans and Greece will be the minimum, it's a difficult objective for any balkanic faction, it's why the requirements are high for any proposal faction.

It's why I think the Scordiscoi are higher in the list of the EBTeam because they are strongs at the start, they are hegemonic during roughly 100 years, they have a polyvalent roster, they have an heterogenous confederation with Thracians, Pannonians and Celtic elements. It's why I like this proposal faction, because they can have all the regional units of the Balkans with a confederate government. Even the Illyrians units.

Also, I believe the Belgae are culturally distinct enough to have their own specific roster, while using nearby celtic units as auxilia.

Like I said in a previous post, they had a Celtic culture. At the start of the game, they will have a "standard" celtic roster mixing eastern Celts (like the Boii) and western Celts (the Gauls). Maybe in the late game they will access to some celto-germanic and britto-gallic units.

[Cohors_Evocata]

I said in a previous post the three strongest Illyrian tribes are the Ardiaei, the Autariatae and the Dardani. As the Autariatae were at their climax before the EB time frame, the two main possibilities are the Ardiaei and the Dardani. Maybe the Dalmatae but they become strong in late game historically.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14685300

My bad for missing this. I've got no real excuse, expect that I probably missed your post as I was skimming over the previous pages. My apologies for this.

They are more suitable than the Ardiaei, it's right, I choose to evaluate the Ardiaei instead because every illyrian-fan are proposing them for a faction. The main reason is because the Ardiaei are truly Illyrians and the Dardani are Illyrians AND Thracians. The main advantage of the Dardani comparing of the Ardiaei is:
+ The Dardani had an heavy infantry and a medium cavalry, the belt of Selca is a Dardanian object. It's not the case of the Ardiaei and of the costal Illyrians.
+ The Dardani truly ruled a region represented in EB2 as a rebel state. It's not the case of the Ardiaei, their homeland is belonging to the Epirotes... then it's a problem.
+ The Dardani were a strong military power, causing a big threat for the Macedonians.
But there is still some issues with them:
- They weren't really hegemonic, they did what any strong "barbarian" tribes did in the history, ravaging and pillaging their neighbors. They had really small conquests. Politically and diplomaticly, the alliances were against them, the Bastarnae, the Triballi, the Scordiscoi forced the kingdom to be more defensive than aggressive. They never put another tribe in vassality.
- Same issue with the other Illyrians, unknown government, unknown language. It's even harder with the Dardani because we don't know which thraco-illyrian languages they spoke as they are in a cultural border.
- Very very hard position to start. Seriously they are surrounded by the Macedonians in the South, the Epirotes in the West. There is a strong danger in the East by the Getai too. The AI will hardly keep this faction alive more than a few turns.

For this reason I think personnaly they had the same chances to be suitable for the mod as the Kartli (caucasians).

With most of this I agree, although I'm not sure whether or not they had any expansionist tendencies during the time-frame in question. I'd probably (at least) have to reread Papazoglu's book on the central Balkan tribes before I can start a discussion about this, though, for which I sadly doubt I'll have the time. Another thing I'd like to note is that (based on this previewed image of the reworked Illyrian area, which may be subject to further change) it doesn't seem they would be entirely surrounded as the west and north would still offer them some room for expansion. It's still not an easy start (and I don't know how well the AI would be able to handle it), but at least it's not as bad as a potential Odrysian faction would be.

Having said all that, I'm not particularly passionate about getting them in the game, so to speak. I basically threw them in as a suggestion and to create some (or further the) discussion.

[Genava]

My bad for missing this. I've got no real excuse, expect that I probably missed your post as I was skimming over the previous pages. My apologies for this.

It's nothing, it happens often to didn't see a small post. Thank you for your politeness.

Another thing I'd like to note is that (based on this previewed image of the reworked Illyrian area, which may be subject to further change) it doesn't seem they would be entirely surrounded as the west and north would still offer them some room for expansion. It's still not an easy start (and I don't know how well the AI would be able to handle it), but at least it's not as bad as a potential Odrysian faction would be.

Riiiiiiight.... I forget this picture! My bad. I think now it's HIGHLY probable they will make a balkanic faction.

We can see Skodra, the hometown of the Ardiaiei. We can see Segestica having a direct border with Singidunon. Dalminion lose its access to the sea. There is Nesactium, the town of the Histri, a venetic tribe. The land of Nesactium include the Liburnian territory. Naissos, the celtic city of the Triballi, and his territory seems identical.

Then I think it will be the Scordiscoi, the Ardiaei or the Dardani. Surely the Scordiscoi for me but nothing is certain.

[Rad]

Great effort there Genava, nicely done. I will now tear it up a bit
First of all, the most suitable are the Ardiaei (or any Illyrians the team thinks of)
Their roster could include heavier units, although I really don't need have it done - medium is fine. I read that in later times Illyrians were armoured in the Roman fashion, i.e. they wore mail.
The Illyrian Wars ended in 168bc, so there's a 100 years - 400 turns to change history. As for having someone powerful enough to be given a province, my suggestion to represent the Illyrian faction as a confederation of sorts like the Sweboz still stands.

Also, I believe the Belgae are culturally distinct enough to have their own specific roster, while using nearby celtic units as auxilia.

[Connacht]

A Belgian faction absolutely, would be a so-long needed buffer between Aedui, Arverni and Sweboz.

[k/t]

(sorry for my bad english)

Your English is fine, except for the fact that "malus" doesn't mean "penalty".

[Mugen234]

I think what would be great for the 2 remaining factions, something like the Caledoniito challenge Pritanoi and an African tribe like Aksum south of Egypt to also make it harder for Egypt to advance or give the player another alternative as a small tribe that can take on the huge nation Egypt or sail across to fight Sb' w-gwm or Malkûtâ Nabâta.

The Caledonii can have a small top part of Calydren so this way playing as Pritanoi isn't just a fight against slaves until you take over all of the island, you actually have an AI faction the Caledonii right above you and it's a race to get as much territory before you guys clash into a war over the island.

The Aksum like said previously, allows an actual African/Ethiopian tribe to take on Egypt or any other factions around them. This will be EB II first black faction and I think that's dope since we already have Ethiopian spearmen, let's give Aksum those and make some slingers, archers, Aksumite Warriors, etc. That would be fun to be a southern African tribe and take over all of Northern Egypt.

[Brihentin13]

As you might guess from my name, I like Celtic factions. It's sort of my thing. So take everything I say with a grain of woad
(heh, see what I did there? The joke sort of works. Sort of...). That being said, I'm really liking the ideas of the Scordisci, Caledonians, or a Belgic tribe. Hell, give us some Helvetians so I can jam out to the "Helvetios" album by Eluvietie some more. Galatians would also be nice, but I totally recognize that Asia Minor might be a little too crowded. We can always just do a migration playthrough as the Arverni to make Galatians. Still, such a faction would make me one very happy Ameri-Gaul.

At the end of the day, so long as I get to sack Rome and Delphi again, I'll be happy.

[Barnabas]

People who voted for Thracian in this thread.
Isn't Getae the same thing as Thracian as the most accurate guess about them?
Are they a separate tribe? Are they a sub Thracian tribe?
People who voted for Thracian in this thread, do you people mean the Odrysian Kingdom?
I am curious for my historical knowledge is very limited.

[Rad]

People who voted for Thracian in this thread.
Isn't Getae the same thing as Thracian as the most accurate guess about them?
Are they a separate tribe? Are they a sub Thracian tribe?
People who voted for Thracian in this thread, do you people mean the Odrysian Kingdom?
I am curious for my historical knowledge is very limited.

I voted for Illyrians, but here's my take on the Thracians.
The Getai are either part of, or closely related to the Thracian people. Ancient historians deem it so, modern historians deem it so. In my opinion, they are represented well enough.

[Genava]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Since the writings of Herodotus in the 5th century BC, Getae/Dacians are acknowledged as belonging to the Thracian sphere of influence. Despite this, they are distinguished from other Thracians by particularities of religion and custom. Geto-Dacians and Thracians were kin people but they were not the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian...with_Thracians

[QuintusSertorius]

As far as we are concerned in the EBII team, the Getai are distinct from the Thracians. That's why they have separate rosters and spheres of influence. Though the Thracians are part of the Getai's core roster. They will be able to recruit many of the new Thracian units you've seen on the Twitter feed from their factional government buildings.