Regarding the Byzantine Menaulion

**+Marius+** · August 30, 2015, 06:29 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menaulion

"menaulon or menavlon (μέναυλον) was a heavy spear with a length of 2.7 to 3.6 metres with a thick shaft... These were then tipped with a long blade of ca. 45–50 cm."

Seems like a much more glorious polearm than the pointy stick the unit gets ingame

**k/t** · August 31, 2015, 12:17 AM

At those dimensions, it would be a two-handed spear. Spears are polearms, too, by the way. But if that information is true, then the depiction of Menaulatoi is good, except for the length of the blade, no?

**+Marius+** · August 31, 2015, 01:06 AM

It is a two handed spear though, and the unit in SS uses it as a two handed spear, its just that in SS it is to small.

This how they did it in Broken Crescent mod;

Great Conflicts mod;

Deus Lo Vult mod;

...and here they are in SS;

:l

Maybe we could just ask one of the teams from those mods to use their weapon model?
Simple replacement.

Also, the unit is recorded as being in use since the 10th century, why in the hell is it not available in the early era?

The unit is amazing btw, it beats heavy jannisaries and most other infantry and cavalry.
Its an all rounder, currently my favorite unit.

**k/t** · August 31, 2015, 01:37 AM

In BC, Menaulatoi are white, no? You're showing the Kontaratoi who are supposed to use the kontos. No, wait, those were red. Hmm, it's been a while since I've played that mod. Or SS.

Nevermind, you flipped them. The middle picture is BC.

The spears look way longer than even 3.6 metres in every mod except SS. Or maybe not... Yeah, I guess they're fine. If a guy is 1.8 metres, then it's about right.

What was the red pike unit for Byzantium in BC?

**jurcek1987** · August 31, 2015, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by k/t

In BC, Menaulatoi are white, no? You're showing the Kontaratoi who are supposed to use the kontos. No, wait, those were red. Hmm, it's been a while since I've played that mod. Or SS.

Nevermind, you flipped them. The middle picture is BC.

The spears look way longer than even 3.6 metres in every mod except SS. Or maybe not... Yeah, I guess they're fine. If a guy is 1.8 metres, then it's about right.

What was the red pike unit for Byzantium in BC?

Yeah those are the BC Kontaratoi (second pic). Menaulatoi are heavy javelinmen. These guys:

The reason SS Menaulatoi are not available from the start is because they're unhistorical (deliberately, to give the Romans access to pikes). They were not pikemen, they were a second row shock infantry used to attack an already engaged heavy cavalry. And there is no source (that I can find) that they were still used in the 12th century. Here is a good article: http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/menavlion.htm

Edit: Informative as always Anthonius

**AnthoniusII** · August 31, 2015, 01:55 AM

Wikipedia is often wrong.
Menaulion in 6th century sources describe a heavy javelin similar to marthiuvarbulus and equal to balista bolts of 1m long.
Menaulion in 10th century describe a 2m spear with "slavic/germanic" spearhead capable to penetrate all kind of armors.
These guys:

Are NOT Menaulatoi but front line scutatoi often called Kontaratoi and they use Kontarion Makron that was a spear of 4.5-5m long and it was introdused by Nikephorus Phokas and disapeared in the years that followed. Such warriors never re-apeared AGAIN in Roman Armies.