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Thread: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

  1. #1
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    With friendly permission from mishkin, to whom goes the credit for this initiative. This amendment is aimed at removing confusion regarding the necessity and procedure to obtain moderational clearance in Citizenship applications in accordance with the Requirements as of Section I, Article I.

    Section I - Members, Citizenship and Curial Officers
    [...]

    Article II. PatronisationAny Citizen who has held their Citizenship for three months can patronise a Peregrinus for Citizenship subject to the requirements in Article I above. The process of patronisation is as follows:

    1. The patron confirms the candidate meets the requirements, or a candidate meeting the requirements contacts a Citizen asking for patronage and with the candidate's consent moderation is requested to inform the patron and the Curator whether the moderational requirement is met.
    2. Given moderational clearance the patron writes an introduction letter outlining why they are nominating the candidate.
    3. The candidate and patron formulate an application which highlights the candidate's contributions along with any supporting evidence/information.
    4. The patron posts the introduction letter and application in a new thread in the Quaestiones Perpetuae forum.
    5. After two days discussion period have passed the Curator adds a poll lasting for five days.
    6. The discussion period can be extended at the discretion of the Curator provided an explanation is given.
    7. If the applicant achieves sixty per cent of non-abstaining votes they are entitled to the award of Citizenship.
    8. The Curator informs the candidate and patron of the result. If the candidate does not pass, the Curator includes the date at which they may re-apply. If the candidate passes they may apply to Citizen usergroups which the Curator accepts.

    If an applicant fails they are not eligible to apply again for one month after the conclusion of the of the poll.

    [...]

    Informal Discussion in the Townhall regarding this topic
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    It is no longer needed the approval of moderation in applications for citizenship?
    Quote Originally Posted by Finlander View Post
    I think it never was.
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    You know what I mean

    To qualify for Citizenship, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have not received a Moderation Warning or Curial Warning within the past six months.

    A moderator has always stated during the application process "The guy is clean" / "Oh my god what the hell are you doing!!?? Withdraw!! Withdraw!!!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ybbon View Post
    Is there an application you are concerned about? I think the usual process is for the Curator to ask one of the moderation overseers but that may just be an informal thing. In the days of CdeC there would usually be a moderator on the CdeC and they would check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Not always. Although admittedly I was surprised when I noticed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I will PM the moderator Overseers to cone to a practical solution to ensure a smooth application process.
    Should such arraignment be codified in the Constitution?
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    This application.
    Just in case, I'm not worried about a particular user, but by the procedure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    One could make it the responsibility of the patron to secure an assurance of clean record from the bold blue lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    No offense, I would prefer the word of a moderator than the word of a patron. Anyway it would complicate matters unnecessarily, I think.
    The curator requesting a public validation from a moderator is simple and easy in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Could one use the report button on the application post to request clearance in a standardised way? I understand it contacts any available moderator.
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Maybe Ged or Hexes receive those reports, but at first sight:

    Moderators of this Forum

    Shankbot de Bodemloze, PikeStance, Iskar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ybbon View Post
    Right, the Curia is the domain of the Curator and whoever he nominates as his CA's and moderators have no official moderation power here - well if we have global powers we can at a pinch, but we do not moderate here - we'd get a great deal of flak if we did.

    For the specific case, no worries there. Easiest way is to make it a Curatorial role to request a check from moderation overseer, does that really need to be a constitutional change? If so should be easy to get sorted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    It is the Curator's responsibility to ensure candidates meet the requirements for citizenship:



    If the Curator requires we check they meet this moderation warning requirement, they can ask Hexagon. This has happened in the past on many an occasion. Preferably a Moderation Overseer should be asked as Ybbon says, but it can just as easily be anyone in Hex. It has become a thing where those with access to moderation records give out statements in most applications like 'clean record' etc for the sake of expediency. I expect it didn't happen for the application in question because the candidate was a member of Site Staff and we don't have people causing Moderation problems in other Staff branches. This is always a given.

    FYI - all of moderation and Hex see moderation reports whether they're specifically assigned to a given forum locally or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Thanks ^
    (and congrats Ybbon, thanks for the dedication Omni)

    So, time for a small constitutional change? (The curator contacts a moderator overseer?) (No, I am not going to try to redact it. No wey)


    Support: Veteraan, Flinn, mishkin, PikeStance
    Last edited by PikeStance; September 15, 2015 at 05:11 AM. Reason: Updated
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  2. #2
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Support (Thanks a lot Iskar)
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

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    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Support.

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    Radzeer's Avatar Rogue Bodemloze
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Support.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Though could that not slow things down? IE - Curator is gone for a couple of days? Perhaps the Sponsor fulfills above role as he is guaranteed to be online at the time of the application going live.

    I am new here and may be wrong but I believe it would go quicker if Sponsor contacted the Moderators. Perhaps that is not the way of things, forgive me if I'm mistaken.

  6. #6
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    In fact the Curator has a duty to be present and in case of absence needs to have subsidiaries appointed to fulfil his duties, so there should always be someone to carry out that request. We discussed the possibility of the patron in the discussion starting here and came to the conclusion that it would be better for the Curator to fill that role.

    PS: I quoted the townhall discussion in the OP now for completeness' sake.
    Last edited by Iskar; August 29, 2015 at 08:49 PM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

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    Under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Neadal/Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  7. #7
    Mega Tortas de Bodemloze's Avatar Divide & Conquer Ver 3
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Kudos to Iskar for an innovation that would further simplify and automate the Citizenship process ...

    Alas...emotional sod that I am...


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    I don't think that I wish to be simplified or further automated this day . Allow me to explain...

    I have always believed that Award & Citizenship pettitions were occasions to celebrate and pay homage to a members accomplishments. It is the TWC communities chance the award the member minute acknoweledgement for all their efforts on our behalf. Removing the minute intrigue that accompanies the query..."any moderation issues?" would only further push citizenship applications towards becoming a completely automated, de-humanizied process... and quite frankly we already do enough of that by not giving citizenship & award petitions their just fanfare.

    In short: We already hardly post in citizenship applications as it is,so I'm not gonna support something that makes petitions any briefer than they already are.

    Opposed.

  8. #8
    m_1512's Avatar Quomodo vales?
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Good presentation of the idea, though would it not be easier to simply let a moderator/admin reading the thread to do that on their own?
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  9. #9
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    While I find this excessive to legislate (in the light of precedence and existing criteria for citizenship), at any rate there is no need at all to specify who shall request moderation input, I say; especially since it's a common interest and the suggested point 6 render point 5 superfluous.
    Simply leave it with that it's needed, and it then will be up to the curious voters/efficient patrons/quick moderators/Curator/anyone else to call in and/or provide the information that allow the application to go to vote.

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  10. #10
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Sometimes the responsibility is diluted, people without direct obligations forgets, accidents happen, etc.
    I also think this process will simplify things for moderation (instead of, perhaps, receive various reports from different users for the same reason) and It is easy to implement by the curator.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  11. #11
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    There are some worthwhile points, though, particularly the ferretogenic one.

    We can remove the additional point 5 and just keep the addition to the subsequent one. That way the Curator or any of his subsidiaries cannot post the poll before clearance is given, so someone will ask for it.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    I prefer waiting for mod clearence before podting the pool, than strictly human. So we will not become a complete burocraty. And that way we are more human

  13. #13
    Mega Tortas de Bodemloze's Avatar Divide & Conquer Ver 3
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Sometimes the responsibility is diluted, people without direct obligations forgets, accidents happen, etc.
    I also think this process will simplify things for moderation (instead of, perhaps, receive various reports from different users for the same reason) and It is easy to implement by the curator.
    I also think this process will simplify things for moderation
    Standing over-watch so that so that naughty boys and girls do not try and snake a badge is not the Moderation Branch's job. For that all eyes fall on the Patron.

    Sometimes the responsibility is diluted, people without direct obligations forgets, accidents happen, etc.
    Yes, Patron's should stay out of the wine cabinet, when they post applications in the Quaestiones Perpetuae...........

  14. #14
    PikeStance's Avatar ⚜️ Omnipresent ⚜️
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by m_1512 View Post
    Good presentation of the idea, though would it not be easier to simply let a moderator/admin reading the thread to do that on their own?
    I actually initiated a discussion about this with the relevant Hex members, but nothing came from it. I would had prefer a more "automated" system than one that relies on multiple actions to complete. (PM sent, checking, then PM check again). Then again, the patron should exercise some foresight and "know" his/ her applicant meet the minimal criteria for citizenship before presenting. Also, technically, no citizen should have to asked if a person meets the minimal requirements; it should be assumed. With this in mind, I think it is the responsibility of the Patron to check. If the Curator believes the Patron did not do his/her due diligence, then the Curator should check PRIOR TO the submission of the applicant. This should be done to prevent any potential embarrassment. Therefore, I OPPOSE this amendment.
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    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    So you think that the first point
    1. The patron confirms the candidate meets the requirements, or a candidate meeting the requirements contacts a Citizen asking for patronage.
    is already sufficient and one should by default assume that a given applicant is moderationally clean?
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

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  16. #16
    Mega Tortas de Bodemloze's Avatar Divide & Conquer Ver 3
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    How lovely you look...so automated and bland...........



    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    So you think that the first point

    is already sufficient and one should by default assume that a given applicant is moderationally clean?

    Do leave a bit of mystery and intrigue to the process. No need to add more boredom than already exists in our beloved Curia.....

  17. #17
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    So you think that the first point

    is already sufficient and one should by default assume that a given applicant is moderationally clean?
    In regards to the procedure..... minimal requirement ought to be determined prior to application being submitted not during. The discussion of the application should be ob the merits of the applicant, not on whether or not he/she met the requirements. It isn't good for anyone to have someone publicly disqualified for not meeting the minimal requirements.
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  18. #18
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    In regards to the procedure..... minimal requirement ought to be determined prior to application being submitted not during. The discussion of the application should be ob the merits of the applicant, not on whether or not he/she met the requirements. It isn't good for anyone to have someone publicly disqualified for not meeting the minimal requirements.
    How could we do it? Moderation is going to talk to me about somebodys history just because I am interested in patronizing a certain user? Patronizing or trying to patronize someone does not give me that privilege in my opinion.

    The amendment is simple and practical (as long as a moderator or Hex does not state the opposite) in my opinion.
    Last edited by mishkin; August 30, 2015 at 09:51 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  19. #19
    Radzeer's Avatar Rogue Bodemloze
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    The only good alternative I see to this proposal if the applicant himself reveals the patron that his moderation history contains a warning in the past six months (as per #1). A member's moderation history is strictly his own. I never liked when random citizens jumped in to ask about moderation history in the discussion thread.

    Under normal circumstances, the applicant should tell the member that he would not pass the moderation requirement before anything is posted. If applicants are not aware of this, the Curator should catch this. The easiest way would be to report the OP of the application with the request to get moderation clearance. This could be then easily answered by any moderator online at the moment.

  20. #20
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Minor Procedural Change to Patronisation for Moderational Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by Radzeer View Post
    I never liked when random citizens jumped in to ask about moderation history in the discussion thread.
    It is a criteria for citizenship, thus the citizens, all of us "randoms", who are to evaluate the application, are entitled to be informed about it; if that criteria is fulfilled or not. Each applicant accept this potential, or rather obligatory, scrutiny by applying in the first place. Considering the patron, indeed, should made sure about this (by scrutiny of his own or clients own initative), it's merely a formality, but non the less an important formality.
    And I for one have confidence in that Moderation will handle it with proper discretion if there would prove to be an issue.
    Last edited by Ngugi; August 30, 2015 at 11:46 AM.

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