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Thread: The European Refugee Crisis

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    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default The European Refugee Crisis

    Donate to the UNHRC's Syrian Refugee Appeal Here

    http://donate.unhcr.org/international/lifeline


    New thread to better discuss the reality of what is happening. Here's the original thread's OP for background - there's a huge amount of data here that contradicts the typical views shared on this forum regarding those currently fleeing to Europe.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In an effort to retake this conversation from this forum's darker interests, I've decided to create a broad spectrum thread on this topic, as today the European Union has agreed reallocate 40,000 migrants from Italy and Greece.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33276443

    150,000 migrants reached Europe's borders in 2015 already, with roughly equal numbers, 60,000 each, arriving by sea to Greece and Italy. Far fewer have traveled overland through Serbia and into Hungary Up 150% on last year, the surge has primarily been caused by continuing conflict in Syria, Libya, Iraq, Somalia and Afghanistan and oppressive regimes, such as Eritrea.

    Thousands have drowned attempting the sea crossings this year already, with deaths in the Western Mediterranean already threatening to outstrip the deaths reported in the whole of 2014. This has been attributed to the cancellation of Italy's Operation Mare Nostrum, a rescue and patrol operation, that the Italian Government claimed it could not afford to fund. The cancellation caused a tenfold increase in deaths and led to the the EU replacement Operation Triton. Funding is voluntary, and Italy does not contribute.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mare_Nostrum
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Triton

    The European Union is governed by a universal asylum policy - the Common European Asylum System. A set of regulations known as the Dublin Regulations govern this, including the agreement that typically an asylum seeker is the responsibility of the EU state to which they enter. Greece, Italy and Hungary claim this results in taking more than their fair share of asylum seekers.

    http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs...m/index_en.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

    However, in reality Germany is overwhelmingly responsible for taking in the EU's asylum seekers, and is also the single greatest recipient of asylum seekers in the world. France, Sweden, the UK, Italy, Belgium, Hungary, Austria, Poland follow in that order (in 2013). Germany, Finland and several other countries also waive Greece's Dublin II obligations and do not send asylum seekers who enter through Greece back there.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24636868

    The crisis has coincided with the rise of the far-right in Hungary and Greece and the Greek Sovereign Debt Crisis and the announcement that the UK will hold a referendum on leaving the EU, brought to bare by dissent over migration. Both Hungary's far-right Jobbik and Greece's neo-nazi Golden Dawn are the third largest Parliamentary party in their respective states, despite most of the Golden Dawn Parliamentary party being in jail for charges as serious as murder. This week Hungary suggested it would violate the Dublin II treaty and refuse to accept the return of any asylum seekers - but quickly u-turned on this the next day.

    The new agreement is not a complete one. The UK has opted out, and Hungary and Bulgaria have been given exemptions by the EU for taking any migrants.


    A EU summit is being held in Vienna to seek consensus on the crisis, the worst refugee crisis in Europe since the Second World War.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34071167

    Germany has confirmed already it is suspending Dublin II, meaning migrants will be processed in Germany and not sent back to their point of entry - i.e. Greece, Italy or Hungary. This has been the case for Hungary and Greece specifically for some time already. Germany has also confirmed it is expecting the vast majority of these migrants are to be processed as refugees - MSF has stated it believes 80% of migrants arriving in Greece are from Syria.

    This has created a gushing of adoration for Germany and Angela Merkel, who has stood up to far-right protestors in Germany, on Syrian social media:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34064131

    Germany anticipates it is going to grant refugee status to 800,000 Syrians this year - it has already granted status to 800,000 in the last year, more than the rest of the whole European Union put together. It is already the most generous host of asylum seekers in the Western World. Once again, Germany is showing it has the political will to lead Europe and Merkel is cementing her position as the most powerful leader of the free world short of the POTUS.

    Meanwhile the death toll of migrants trying to make the journey remains high. Today alone dozens of decomposing bodies have been discovered in a Hungarian truck in Austria, and hundreds are presumed drowned off Libya.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/austria...nts-suffocated
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0QW27E20150827

    And not all Governments are rising to the challenge of basic human decency that Germany and Merkel are achieving. Greek police and Macedonian police have both been exposed using excessive force, water was denied to refugees on Kos, Bulgaria has militarised its border and Hungary is nearing completion of a pointless wall on its border with Serbia:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ysia-iraq.html

    Already photojournalists are publishing pictures of refugees - including families with children - crawling under the wall:

    https://twitter.com/AFPphoto/status/636817716100382720

    The Hungarian Parliament is meeting to decide whether it should militarise the border - under pressure from neo-Nazis in that Parliament, the Government could easily make a foolish error:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...igrants-serbia

    And Vox points out this is probably a violation of UN international law on refugees:

    http://www.vox.com/2015/4/22/8464623...ees-law-europe

    Serbia on the other hand, not a EU country but receiving European Commission funding to help deal with the crisis, is so far doing good work, issuing documents to Syrians and directing them to Belgrade. The Serbian Government has rightly condemned the Hungarian wall. There's an excellent article on the New York Times on how migrants are travelling through Syria without traffickers through smartphone maps:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/26/wo...martphone.html

    The UNHRC is in fact providing refugees in Jordan with smart phone sims and solar chargers.

    Europe faces a choice it had to make, and did not get right, before the holocaust 70 years ago. It's essential Europe rises to the ideals it has helped establish upon civilisation since then.
    Last edited by Ferrets54; August 31, 2015 at 03:21 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post

    Meanwhile the death toll of migrants trying to make the journey remains high. Today alone dozens of decomposing bodies have been discovered in a Hungarian truck in Austria
    Meanwhile, Austrian authorities have confirmed that at least 70 (seventy!) corpses are to be found in this truck.
    Horrible.

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    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    What do you propose then?

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    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gäiten View Post
    What do you propose then?
    It's our obligation to shelter refugees.

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    Stavros_Kalmpou's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    It's our obligation to shelter refugees.
    Until when?
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    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavros_Kalmpou View Post
    Until when?
    Until they can safely return to their homes.

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    Maced0n's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Their (new) homes in London, Stockholm, Munich or their homes in Damascus and Tripoli

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    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    What is the UK doing about the migrant crisis, out of curiosity? I know they have some ships patrolling in the Mediterranean, but as far as I know they don't keep the migrants but instead transfer them to other continental nations.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Back home? are you crazy? after traveling to hell to reach Germany, Sweden, and UK ( and this is their goal before hand, i wonder why?!), you think they want to go back?


    This line of thinking, is prove that EU is so lost and out of touch with reality on this issue.

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    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default

    I imagine that depends, but granting people refugee status is not the same as granting anybody permanent right to remain. War torn countries... Like the former Yugoslav states... Do recover, rebuild, repopulate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    What is the UK doing about the migrant crisis, out of curiosity? I know they have some ships patrolling in the Mediterranean, but as far as I know they don't keep the migrants but instead transfer them to other continental nations.
    Not enough is the answer, just as it is the answer for every EU state except Germany and sweden. But ywa we contribute to triton as well as the budget for the emergency EU funds. But we need to take in more of the refugees themselves.
    Last edited by Tiberios; August 28, 2015 at 06:32 AM. Reason: Double post

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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Not enough is the answer, just as it is the answer for every EU state except Germany and sweden. But ywa we contribute to triton as well as the budget for the emergency EU funds. But we need to take in more of the refugees themselves.
    I'm curious as to why Britain isn't generally considered one of the destinations of the migrants, since most seem to want to go to Sweden and Germany. I realize the latter choices are likely because they are prosperous countries and more generous in their policies towards migrants and potential refugees, but I've honestly been surprised that so few people declare they want to go to the UK. Is it because they know how hard it is to get there and stay there, or do you think it's something else?

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    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    As you know, there is already a thread on this topic which this should be merged with.

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    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    I'm curious as to why Britain isn't generally considered one of the destinations of the migrants, since most seem to want to go to Sweden and Germany. I realize the latter choices are likely because they are prosperous countries and more generous in their policies towards migrants and potential refugees, but I've honestly been surprised that so few people declare they want to go to the UK. Is it because they know how hard it is to get there and stay there, or do you think it's something else?
    We're the hardest of the truly rich countries on the migrants because the British public are genuinely stupid enough to be the softest. The Tory government is totally committed to keeping the uk in the EU by winning the upcoming referendum. To protect their flank from UKIP they must demonstrate they can keep uk net immigration down - they're failing. Its tg highest in record.

    The tone if the British tabloid press on the refugees is beyond disgraceful - the government is terrified if the refugees putting the numbers even higher.

    But that's no excuse. The British public have shown the capacity to be generous guests in the past. They have to be reminded what the best British values stand for.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    We're the hardest of the truly rich countries on the migrants because the British public are genuinely stupid enough to be the softest. The Tory government is totally committed to keeping the uk in the EU by winning the upcoming referendum. To protect their flank from UKIP they must demonstrate they can keep uk net immigration down - they're failing. Its tg highest in record.

    The tone if the British tabloid press on the refugees is beyond disgraceful - the government is terrified if the refugees putting the numbers even higher.

    But that's no excuse. The British public have shown the capacity to be generous guests in the past. They have to be reminded what the best British values stand for.
    Colonising and making money off other people's misery?

    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Until they can safely return to their homes.
    Will we be training the men to fight to save their home country from ruin?

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    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    If we help these people they will be grateful and this will be a huge boost in the EU image. Instead of muslims denouncing colonialists and crusaders you will have muslims that will say thank you to EU. My only veto is that i fear that this immigration has only started. How will it stop? Can EU handle 100 million refugees and immigrants from Africa and Asia? I think not

  17. #17

    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    If we help these people they will be grateful and this will be a huge boost in the EU image. Instead of muslims denouncing colonialists and crusaders you will have muslims that will say thank you to EU. My only veto is that i fear that this immigration has only started. How will it stop? Can EU handle 100 million refugees and immigrants from Africa and Asia? I think not
    The western grand strategy needs millions of new workers that will work for peanuts out of desperation to try and combat China and India
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  18. #18
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    I'm sure we all can imagine my stance on helping out those in need- so beyond reiterating what posters like Ferrets have said, am i the only one who perhaps see's a positive outcome for both the refugees and the states accepting them? I'm sure we're all aware and bored to tears now of the impending population crisis by 2030 for most of Europe.

    I mean just as a case study, read (or watch if you can find it) this:

    https://www.ted.com/talks/rainer_str...pt?language=en

    Germany by 2030 was set to drop quite significantly in economic clout- and the UK was set to become one of the premier economies in Europe- the difference back then? Immigration. And this is something that is largely attributed to the reasons for the economic changes. Ageing population- larger state burden, less young people to pay for them. Now of course with Germany quite sensibly welcoming immigrants with open arms and doing so much to get them on their feet, one might see a reason beyond humanitarian gain- they see the economic advantages to reverse this predicted trend of economic decline (linked to population decline) by helping out those from unstable states. I'd be interested in the next few years to see how this may affect the economic output of states (in conjunction with a UK set to be one of the 'top dogs' but who is attempting, though largely unsuccessfully so far to limit immigration).
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    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    It's our obligation to shelter refugees.
    Our obligation? Why?

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  20. #20

    Default Re: The European Refugee Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gäiten View Post
    Our obligation? Why?
    Elementary really

    http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49da0e466.html

    As an aside, I note that Hungary's 100 million Euro fence is proven to be utterly useless. Chauvinistic posing seems to be not only pointless, but costly.
    Last edited by mongrel; August 28, 2015 at 08:26 AM.
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