Rationalist/Empiricist Definitions

[Silver Guard]

Empirism is the belief that all must be proven beyond doubt before being accepted no? If so the only thing that can be proven beynd doubt, through rationalism, is self

[Tom Paine]

No, not at all. Sorry, empiricism has nothing to do with Descartes' rationalist method of doubt, which you describe.

[Silver Guard]

I was using Descartes to illustrate an aspect of my Empirist beliefs. Extreme Empirism being that nothing can be proven? I was showing the one exception to that

[Tom Paine]

No; that's extreme rationalism; extreme empiricism takes the view that all knowledge is gathered through the senses and we start off as tabula rasa...

[Silver Guard]

Indeed, and with Bekeley's refution of the proof given by the senses the two became intertwined. Berkeley was an Empirist, yet he also refuted that anything was certain to exist

[Tom Paine]

But he still believed knowledge was attained through the senses, just not certain knowledge; Descartes did not believe the senses gave anything.

I'll split this off... rationalist/empiricist disctinction is another debate.

[Silver Guard]

Hume believed that only as long as it could be assumed that what was before him was real, Berkeley refuted that it could be assumed as such