how to fight the mongols.... again!

[anonymous_(\)008]

I'm pretty sure this must have been addressed before but i can't some up with anything using the search function, so please bear with me. I'm playing as Novgorod and i'm having a hard time fighting the mongols. This is the first time i'm facing them in full-on-mode since i started playing this mod. My only problem is that their units are so ridiculously strong. How do you fight that? I can counter their "infinite" stacks through some strategical planning but their units are just too strong. I just came out of a bridge battle where 7 hoshiga HAs and 2 khabutu archers just straight up machine gunned all of my infantry into oblivion in just a few seconds (i won the battle, only because it was a bridge battle on my terms.. 2 and a half stacks against 1 of mine.. but i lost all of my units). I definitely need to change my tactics against them. My first strategy was to conquer the steppes before they do and push them down to Anatolia where i fought them in previous campaigns and won every battle, but this time around, they caught me in Bulgar, Yelabuga and Sarkel. Can anybody help me out? I haven't fought siege battles with them but i doubt it will be any different. I get the fact that they are there to "shake up" the campaign, but their units are just so damn OP, they've just about broke the mod for me (and yes i know the Timurids will eventually come)

[+Marius+]

Go to the unit descr file and reduce the missile attack value of their horse archers to 2-3 and their range to 90-120.

Also search through the units using one handed blunt weapons and reduce any damage value higher than 6...to 6.

Through tweaking you get realism.
Through realism you gain victory.

[LuckyPistol]

Unfortunately I have to agree. The Mongols seemed to have been adjusted more for the "challenge" than for realism (highly armored units were not common in Mongol armies which emphasized mobility). No bow attack value should be above 6, in my opinion. It's also odd how every stack is an elite stack where as in history, this wasn't the case.

Its still an amazing mod, and I'm thankful for the effort these guys put into it.

[RexTrust]

Siege weapons, siege weapons, siege weapons - trebuchets, catapults, mangonels (if deployed correctly), and later cannons. at least 5 units per army. this is, for me, the only effecive way against those mongols.

[anonymous_(\)008]

Siege weapons, siege weapons, siege weapons - trebuchets, catapults, mangonels (if deployed correctly), and later cannons. at least 5 units per army. this is, for me, the only effecive way against those mongols.

i will try out your advice. Though i do use them with great results in choke points, i haven't really used them en-masse, especially in field battles. Playing teutonic campaign, i find mangonels to be surprisingly effective against horse archers, but in this mod, Novgorod does not have access to them, which is a bummer... i always liked the fireworks lol.

[RexTrust]

i will try out your advice. Though i do use them with great results in choke points, i haven't really used them en-masse, especially in field battles. Playing teutonic campaign, i find mangonels to be surprisingly effective against horse archers, but in this mod, Novgorod does not have access to them, which is a bummer... i always liked the fireworks lol.

yep, the fireworks - especially if they hit a well packed infantry line :-)

if fighting the mongols (with KoJ, Seljucs, TO, or Byzanthines), i try to put together an army of 5-10 siege weapons, 1-3 heavy spearmen (or heavy infantry) and the rest of heavy cav. in battle, i focus 1-2 trebuchets on the enemy general and the rest on the infantriy/cav. if lucky, i kill the general with the trebuchets and sometimes nearly 1/2 or 1/3 of their army with the rest of the siege weapons. the spearmen protect the siege weapons. then i get in with my heavy cavalry. after the battle, my heavy cav is usually decimated - but the battle is won and with time i get high experience cav.

[anonymous_(\)008]

thanks for your suggestion marius. i'll def do that, though i'm not sure if it is save game compatible. Additionally, i've noticed the some mongolian units have more men per unit, which really adds to their OPness. Is it possible to decrease this using the EDU files? if it is possible maybe i wouldn't need to nerf their stats, or vice versa.
@luckypistol, i agree with you too. AFAIK, the mongols were powerful because of their unconventional warfare and superior tacticians (i could be wrong), but not because of their super strong warriors. But then again, i understand how difficult it would be to implement that in the game. I love this mod, it's just awesome and i appreciate the hard work the modders have put into it. I just need to nerf the mongols and timurids is all.

[Ranger275]

thanks for your suggestion marius. i'll def do that, though i'm not sure if it is save game compatible. Additionally, i've noticed the some mongolian units have more men per unit, which really adds to their OPness. Is it possible to decrease this using the EDU files? if it is possible maybe i wouldn't need to nerf their stats, or vice versa.
@luckypistol, i agree with you too. AFAIK, the mongols were powerful because of their unconventional warfare and superior tacticians (i could be wrong), but not because of their super strong warriors. But then again, i understand how difficult it would be to implement that in the game. I love this mod, it's just awesome and i appreciate the hard work the modders have put into it. I just need to nerf the mongols and timurids is all.

Tactics, horse archers, mobility, strategy, and (believe it or not) excellent heavy shock cavalry. They also had much more advanced siege technology and equipment than the europeans, as well.

[Ziltoid]

Facing mongols as France in late campaign, early 1300s atm in my VH/VH campaign in which i crusaded to Holy Lands early on and took over Syria and southern Turkey. Now facing nearly endless Mongol stacks.

First you can sort of cheat em to death by deploying stakes in defensive siege battle on your gates. Send few knights to engage their wall climbers and then pull back once they drop their gear. Then watch them all rush through your gate, with majority of horsemen dying instantly on stakes. Feels bit too gamey though and abusing bad mechanics.

Another has been doing the same as above but without stakes, once they pour through the gates, first 2 deep line spearmen set in hold ground mode. Then mix Voulgiers (or any kind of halberdier/AP type infantry) in middle of these spears, so that the spears absorb the shock of cavalry, and then armor piercing voulgiers start hacking all the well armoured heavy cavalry down. Don't set this spear+voulgier line too close to gates, so that you can also create there zone where you can flank shoot with crossbows, ballistas or even mangonels (risky especially with non-experienced ones) at the bottled up main mass of enemy from very close range aslong as you keep the massive balled up enemy formation engaged in melee with your own guys holding ground so they wont walk into that friendly ranged fire. Ribault of course is optimal also for this job but have not been able to buy those outside europe (as mercs there). Killing here isn't the only priority, with flanking fire from both sides to massed enemy formations, while engaged on melee at front, their moral drops fast, and usually the time general drops dead, they all flee, works later on even better with gunpowder units. Javelinmen (turkish if defending in middle-east as european faction) are also very effective at armor piercing sniping of their heavy cavalry and bodyguard. Also good to have some swordsmen/macemen to deal with mongolian infantry along with the spears. And since its holy lands, of course those order knights, both mounted and infantry to throw in there.



Above works even better in fortress/citadel. Where you let enemy come to first walls, they use all their wall climbing equipment there, and come only with gate breaking equipment for next set of walls. At this point you got several minutes of time to pepper enemy with archers and deal hundreds of casualties to em before they breach 2nd set of gates. At this point you can do the above defence, or even fall back to 3rd gate if Citadel and cause little bit more of ranged kills still if arrows left.

I tend to avoid mongols in open due their OP range and massive amount of long ranged deadly arrows coming at you. Their heavy cavalary charges also hit so hard i think only pikemen would be good enough to safely take em in open.

[Sint]

They also had much more advanced siege technology and equipment than the europeans, as well.

Well not really....

[Edric_Valyrion]

When facing the Mongols in an open field, opt for more light cavalry rather than heavy ones. Heavier cavalry are pretty useless when it comes to catching the Mongol cavalry. They can't outrun them and quite frankly, by the time you do get to them your units are already exhausted. Fight fire with fire, missile cavalry works. If you're planning on adding infantry units, add heavier variants of spearmen with a decent armour to withstand the hail of missiles until the enemy runs out of ammo. That's when the fun starts. Siege weapons as many have already pointed out is your trump card.

Then again it all depends on the stacks you face so have your spies scout enemy stacks and find out what's in them. Not every Mongol stack is all cavalry. So if you're facing a n infantry stack with a few cavalry units, replace some of your spearmen with your better infantry units.

There used to be an old "cheat" or tactic that veterans used wherein they fight using forts to their advantage and have the Mongols fight a siege instead of a field battle.

[LuckyPistol]

There used to be an old "cheat" or tactic that veterans used wherein they fight using forts to their advantage and have the Mongols fight a siege instead of a field battle.

Might you be referring to the "stakes at the gate" technique?

[tomberry]

I made good experiences with pavise crossbows.

Just defend them with some heavy spears and let them shoot the enemy down.
Sure, you will loose some units too, but this method is much cheaper than throwing heavy cavalry against them

[KiKiweaky]

Use cities and castles to your advantage too, no need to dumb down the enemy to win just fight them where they have difficulty performing to their strengths. Open plains they will murderate you, the archers they have are ridiculous long range, armoured, fast and very good stamina.

A fortress however they have problems with as they have no direct line of sight and you can use a single mangonel and 4 units of archers to massacre them as they walk in, then use the other 15 units in your army to kill the survivors.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

If you would rather not fight the Mongols choose a western faction, play with the Lusted or Savage AI on easy or normal difficulty. If you would rather fight the Mongols, play an eastern faction such as Khwarezm or Novgorod, play with the Gracul AI on hard or very hard. For intermediate preferences, find something along that scale that suits your playing style. There is no point in choosing a Mongol heavy campaign, then tune down the Mongols, e.g. on the EDU. When you cheat, you only cheat yourself not the AI. The AI is a non-thinking piece of code.

[Harith]

1st Strategy: Meet them on the battlefield Mongol style

Simulate a custom battle between your faction and a standard mongol stack. Have 3-4 light cav, 5-6 heavy cav, 3 foot archers with 1-2 infantry to guard and the rest horse archers. Use the light cav as suicide units and pin down the HA at any cost. If they rout or there are too many HA, then use the HA as well to charge along their side. Then, charge with heavy cav to their flanks or rear. In the meantime also engage 1 or 2 heavy cav with their heavy cav to stop them and maybe flank with light cav to surround their heavy cav while you finish off HA. Meanwhile, the archers, if not attacked, are still firing anywhere and everywhere because every kill matters.

I did this towards the end of the mongol invasion and against mostly isolated stacks. You, however, have to rely on constant supply chains of mercenaries and troops and as a result, one must have a sizable recruitment pool to do so.

2nd Strategy: Stay Inside the city

Staying inside the walls and using spears/ pikes to contain the horses in siege assaults. This is the most cost-effective method. You only need your general's cav and maybe another heavy cav if you can flank outside the wall. 10 spearmen/ pikemen, 4-5 archers and the rest heavy infantry. You should leave the spearmen/ pikemen to handle the breaching units and support them accordingly with heavy infantry that has the "effective against armor" trait or any 2 handed infantry.

3rd Strategy: Raiding Parties

You can compose a unit of 2-4 heavy cav and 4 HA and use them soften the mongol hordes. You are not aiming at winning the battle, rather you are aiming at killing the general or killing off as many units as possible. I personally have never used this strategy but a few friends of mine have used it and it seemed to have worked.

Finally, you have to learn to accept multiple defeats and the loss of some or many settlements. You need to contain the mongols. So, If you have a really good fortress or citadel with only 1 or 2 routes that can be blocked by a fort, then do that. Fully stack those settlements and try to kill as many mongols. Do not repair the damage or recruit any units and before you lose them destroy all the buildings to get some money back to finance your expensive defenses. They are meant to slow the horde down while you setup the forts and recruit at the citadel. Once they arrive and siege the forts, you should have 1 full stack in each and a third in the citadel and you simply reinforce from there. If the distance is too long, setup a midway fort and move your units from the citadel to the midway fort to the frontier fort. Even if you lose the forts, then the citadel should prove very difficult for them no matter how many stacks they siege it with.

[bezna]

I've find out, playing as Spain, that Night battle is very useful vs Mongol invasion. You just need 4 or 5 generals that owns the trait in order to beat the mongol with their weapons (outnumber). At the begining of the invasion you strip the mongol stacks of their generals while you make a defensive line of your owns. When they reach your area fight the most easy of them. They tend to move in horde - 2 lines of 2-3 stacks. You attack the weakest stack in their first line with your strongest army by night. The odds will be 1:1 so you'll never have a problem winning. After the first of their stacks routs take your next general and attack the other stack from their front row. If you choose to carry a night attack you'll get, as reinforcement, the general that carried the first attack. You'' outnumber the single mongol stack. After you rout 3-4 stacks you can take tha khan in order to get the "faction destroyed" announcement and every mongol dissapear.
This is how I've started
this is the result
2nd fight main army vs mongol stack
my reinforcements
ratio
result
3rd fight main armies involved
ratio and reinforcerments
outcome
and last...the khan 1 vs 1
ended with the death of the khan by execcution the prisoners
and the message that wiped all the mongols from the map
This was the first wave and preparations started 15-20 turns before the encounter by raising the crusader sargents/heavy cav/pavise crosbow/generals with niht fight trait and tranporting them to the holy land. Plus the 3 top notch assasins that killed every general in the mongolian army.
I'm playing m/h as Spain.

[LuckyPistol]

Your images are broken dude.

[bezna]

I've find out, playing as Spain, that Night battle is very useful vs Mongol invasion. You just need 4 or 5 generals that owns the trait in order to beat the mongol with their weapons (outnumber). At the begining of the invasion you strip the mongol stacks of their generals while you make a defensive line of your owns. When they reach your area fight the most easy of them. They tend to move in horde - 2 lines of 2-3 stacks. You attack the weakest stack in their first line with your strongest army by night. The odds will be 1:1 so you'll never have a problem winning. After the first of their stacks routs take your next general and attack the other stack from their front row. If you choose to carry a night attack you'll get, as reinforcement, the general that carried the first attack. You'' outnumber the single mongol stack. After you rout 3-4 stacks you can take tha khan in order to get the "faction destroyed" announcement and every mongol dissapear.
This is how I've started
this is the result
2nd fight main army vs mongol stack
my reinforcements
ratio
result
3rd fight main armies involved
ratio and reinforcerments
outcome
and last...the khan 1 vs 1
ended with the death of the khan by execcution the prisoners
and the message that wiped all the mongols from the map
This was the first wave and preparations started 15-20 turns before the encounter by raising the crusader sargents/heavy cav/pavise crosbow/generals with niht fight trait and tranporting them to the holy land. Plus the 3 top notch assasins that killed every general in the mongolian army.
I'm playing m/h as Spain.