Download Morning Sun Version 3.3

[nguyenmaithu]

Regarding updating this mod in the next version the main changes will be making the unit stats more accurate and adding more armour variety to the Ming. The Tusi and Jurchen will also get more types of armour.



Would you be able to provide me with more information regarding the composition of the Dai Viet army during this time period. For example what armour did they wear, what weapons did they use, and which troops were most common.

i will give some information about weapons first. i will post it on my google drive and send you, i must translate from Vietnamese to English

[Vagabond]

Again, great mod

I gave a try and here's some quick feedbacks:

- The units are fantastic.
- The map for China and the nomads looks like a vast no man land but it's ok since I believe there'll be further polishing.
- As well as some other minor issues such as text in the menu or in game but it's not important.
- There's no road in the nomad provinces but we can still construct roads in the settlement menu?
- Korea has no spy? Any country at any moment always have spies, they're maybe not well known as ninja etc. but I think they do exist. We can still use the ninja stuff for all spies but Japanese ninja would have 3+ exp at recruitment?

The most important feedback I'd like to give is about the gameplay balancing:

1. Balancing between a province in China and a province in Japan: China is huge and is probably 20 times bigger than Japan, both in term of land, manpower and economy. Thus making China has like 100 provinces and Japan has like 80 provinces is not relevant IMHO. A "province" in China is actually equal to 6-10 provinces in Japan. It's a game I know, however the game still should reflect the actual power balance between China and Japan at the time. I know it's crazy letting China to have 400 - 500 provinces so my idea is to make the Japan has fewer provinces. This however is not historically accurate since we'll also have to reduce the number of Japanese factions, but we definitely should find a way to balance this issue. Maybe we should increase the recruitment slot number and income of a province in China?

2. China vs Mongols:
- The Yuan should start with at least 5 full stacks of which xp >= 5. Historically and actually all the male nomads are active soldiers and they're very experienced. The Mings also should start with at least 10 full stacks but consisted mostly of levy troops, these stacks should be located at the northern border against the Yuan. If you think it's too much an advantage for the Ming to conquer the world, you can make a feature like the American Discovery in MTW 2: the sea between China and Japan is not passable until they reach certain tech that allows them to build necessary ships. This will give the Japan players sometime to conquer Japan and prepare for that battle if it comes. It'd be lot more interesting than the Ming just sit there like a big, idle, stupid giant.
- Ming and Yuan should be at war at the very start. Historically they're always at war and that'd be a lot more interesting if these 2 fight each other to the death.
- You should also increase the movement radius for nomad troops. They did can travel a much bigger distance compare to a normal troop (Ming, Japan, ...) at the time.

I haven't had the time to play much so please excuse me if any of my feedbacks is not relevant.

@ Uanime5: I love this mod and I'm no modder but still a dev with 10+ years xp so please feel free to contact me if you think I'd be any help, for example putting trees in the map? Thanks.

[nguyenmaithu]

this is about personal weapon of Dai Viet army in XVI century:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4P...ew?usp=sharing

i will write about armour later

[Vagabond]

this is about personal weapon of Dai Viet army in XVI century:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4P...ew?usp=sharing

i will write about armour later

I think you forgot some, the Dai Viet army used a lot of crossbow, javelin and scimitar. Especially crossbow was very popular, they used both single and multiple arrows crossbow (chu ko nu type). These were used combined with pike (very long pike) and the Cau Liem to effectively combat against cavalry. Dai Viet has very weak cavalry and heavy armour troop due to their natural habitat and conditions (very mountainous, hot and humid) but they did defeat three invasions from the Yuan.

Here's some photos:








P/S: Idk there's two whole threads of 50 pages discussing about Dai Viet faction and their army lol:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...otal-War/page9 : this thread already made some units/model for the Dai Viet army
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ssion-Dai-Viet : this thread discusses the whole story for Dai Viet faction including provinces, symbol etc.

[nguyenmaithu]

I think you forgot some, the Dai Viet army used a lot of crossbow, javelin and scimitar. Especially crossbow was very popular, they used both single and multiple arrows crossbow (chu ko nu type). These were used combined with pike (very long pike) and the Cau Liem to effectively combat against cavalry. Dai Viet has very weak cavalry and heavy armour troop due to their natural habitat and conditions (very mountainous, hot and humid) but they did defeat three invasions from the Yuan.

Here's some photos:








P/S: Idk there's two whole threads of 50 pages discussing about Dai Viet faction and their army lol:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...otal-War/page9 : this thread already made some units/model for the Dai Viet army
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ssion-Dai-Viet : this thread discusses the whole story for Dai Viet faction including provinces, symbol etc.

I write about Dai Viet army in XVI century. In that time Dai Viet regular army wasn't use lots of Crossbow(they replace crossbow by handgones and arquebus).

In XV - XVI century, they have a heavy armour cavalry and armour call "Thiet Dot".

[nguyenmaithu]

a Vietnamese long Dao

[Vagabond]

I write about Dai Viet army in XVI century. In that time Dai Viet regular army wasn't use lots of Crossbow(they replace crossbow by handgones and arquebus).

In XV - XVI century, they have a heavy armour cavalry and armour call "Thiet Dot".

Yeah maybe, I think you're probably right about the popular use of arquebus but they still have crossbow I think? Anyway crossbow should be much cheaper than arquebus and by that time, arquebus was still not very effective. Plus crossbow is a traditional Vietnamese weapon throughout the time. I've seen some sources saying that Dai Viet army used crossbow but they're not academic sources so I can't use them as some sort of confirmation here.

For the heavy armor cavalry "Thiet Dot", so far there's no source or fact that confirm this rather than a historic text saying Dai Viet used some sort of shock troop as "Thiet Dot" but they're probably shock infantry IMO. I strongly doubt Dai Viet can have any heavy armor cavalry with this kind of horse:



Vietnamese horse is small, slow and weak and was used mostly for transportation. Medieval Vietnamese army usually consisted only of light infantry, artillery and elephant. Medieval Vietnamese is also relatively small, the weather is hot, humid and the country side is very mountainous so heavy armor infantry is not relevant as well IMO (imagine you have to wear full armor of 10 - 20 kg to fight in a 30 - 35 °C plus 80 % humidity OMG O.o)
So far I have never seen any solid evidence or source that confirm the use of heavy cavalry nor heavy infantry in medieval Vietnam. Btw, they did have a terrifying heavy cavalry: mounted artillery elephant.

[nguyenmaithu]

Yeah maybe, I think you're probably right about the popular use of arquebus but they still have crossbow I think? Anyway crossbow should be much cheaper than arquebus and by that time, arquebus was still not very effective. Plus crossbow is a traditional Vietnamese weapon throughout the time. I've seen some sources saying that Dai Viet army used crossbow but they're not academic sources so I can't use them as some sort of confirmation here.

For the heavy armor cavalry "Thiet Dot", so far there's no source or fact that confirm this rather than a historic text saying Dai Viet used some sort of shock troop as "Thiet Dot" but they're probably shock infantry IMO. I strongly doubt Dai Viet can have any heavy armor cavalry with this kind of horse:



Vietnamese horse is small, slow and weak and was used mostly for transportation. Medieval Vietnamese army usually consisted only of light infantry, artillery and elephant. Medieval Vietnamese is also relatively small, the weather is hot, humid and the country side is very mountainous so heavy armor infantry is not relevant as well IMO (imagine you have to wear full armor of 10 - 20 kg to fight in a 30 - 35 °C plus 80 % humidity OMG O.o)
So far I have never seen any solid evidence or source that confirm the use of heavy cavalry nor heavy infantry in medieval Vietnam. Btw, they did have a terrifying heavy cavalry: mounted artillery elephant.

Yep. Crossbow still used until XIX century, but they was used by warriors of the armies of ethnic minorities.
About the horse and cavalry,Vietnamese Horses degeneration only from the 19th century onwards(when Nguyen Dynasty didn't use cavalry in battle and started remove cavalry out from their army). the Western missionaries lived in Vietnam at that time(i mind XVI-XVII century) also notes that the Vietnamese war horse is not small or weak.

In some history documents(which was writed at that time) had mention about armour cavalry in some battles, example in battle of Thang Long 1592, armoured cavalry of Le army attacked North - West of Thang Long.

[nguyenmaithu]

In 16th century, Vietnam weather wasn't hot like present =))

If you said Vietnamese can't wear full armor in this weather, so, why Indian and Middle East warriors can? India & Middle East weather hot and harsh than Vietnam =))
a Indian armor, maybe XVII-XVIII century

[Vagabond]

In 16th century, Vietnam weather wasn't hot like present =))

If you said Vietnamese can't wear full armor in this weather, so, why Indian and Middle East warriors can? India & Middle East weather hot and harsh than Vietnam =))
a Indian armor, maybe XVII-XVIII century

Vietnamese weather has been always hot and humid, it's a bit cold only in the winter. Physically, medieval male Vietnamese is about 1.5 m and 40-50 kg, I don't think with such physic you can wear a full armor of 10 Kg (Japanese is also small but their armor is relatively light). The Middle East have heavy infantry despite the hot weather because their environment temperature is higher than body temperature & it's very dry, that's why it's actually cooler if you wear a lot of clothes/armor than little clothes (that's also why the Arab always wear their thawb). India is vast and also has regions with conditions allows them to have such infantry.
Anyway, I have never ever seen any evidence or source confirming that Dai Viet had heavy armor infantry.

[nguyenmaithu]

Vietnamese weather has been always hot and humid, it's a bit cold only in the winter. Physically, medieval male Vietnamese is about 1.5 m and 40-50 kg, I don't think with such physic you can wear a full armor of 10 Kg (Japanese is also small but their armor is relatively light). The Middle East have heavy infantry despite the hot weather because their environment temperature is higher than body temperature & it's very dry, that's why it's actually cooler if you wear a lot of clothes/armor than little clothes (that's also why the Arab always wear their thawb). India is vast and also has regions with conditions allows them to have such infantry.
Anyway, I have never ever seen any evidence or source confirming that Dai Viet had heavy armor infantry.

you can't see because many books, documents and acient pictures had been burned by Ming dynasty in XV century and by French in XIX century. And Vietnamese Historians didn't care about army and military equipments very much.

[uanime5]

Regarding elephants I would like to add them but I don't know if it will be possible. It all depends on whether I can get ETW elephants to work in S2TW.

[mhawari]

sir, is that really "Hwacha" from korean dynasty looks like this ? i know they're use some sort of cart.

[nguyenmaithu]

sir, is that really "Hwacha" from korean dynasty looks like this ? i know they're use some sort of cart.

Hwacha

[uanime5]

I haven't made new models for the Hwacha yet and this was one of the few ETW models left in Shogun 2 that didn't look like a cannon. This model was the rocket launcher from the Rocket Ketch, so I assumed it would be best for weapons that use rockets.

Unsure if you can make new models or whether any of the ETW/NTW models would be better.

[mhawari]

Oh i see, so is was rocket ketch. Sorry for asking i just want to know, because this is my first time to see some "Rocket Ketch".

[nhinhonhinho]

Well someone talking about Vietnamese heavy armor here right!?

Have something to show here then
http://nhinhonhinho.deviantart.com/a...alry-414313053

I can be said nearly every single things on that guy (not the horse!) have their reason. For the horse, I use the cataphract horse because horses is a separate model with the man in RTW

In the other hand



16-17th century Vietnamese heavy cavalry.

Well unfortunately for the next 2 weeks I would be very busy so I won't be here much to discuss . But if the mod team do intend to add Vietnamese faction in this great mod then it would be great and

Another notes:

- Even the Indonesian and Malaysian do maintain cataphract despite their terrain and weather
- In the other hand the weather of Southern China is no differ than North Vietnam's once

[tuanluu214]

@nhinhonhinho: I suppose that you took this image from lichsuvn.net. However, I believe that you missed the point that it is Laos cavalry from the note of who posted this picture.

[job345]

Will the dai viet be updated and playable? can the map be extended to include southeast asia. it would be so cool. All the euro focused total war games are getting boring.

[job345]

found this chinese mod for mtw2 http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...h-Eastern-Asia they have all these differnt asian factions and their accurate portrayal of units. might be useful to help remodel some of the textures/units for the smaller factions dai viet, thai, tibet, etc