Download Morning Sun Version 3.3

[uanime5]

Hi I think you should allow other factions to recruit Korean unit in korea, because it just doesn't make any sense. if I conquered whole korea and I'm unable to recruit a single Korean soldier?

Why does it make any sense that if you conquer somewhere the people will willingly join your army and fight their own people for a foreign ruler?

Also if you could recruit Korean soldiers then this would make the Korean navy useless because you would easily be able to resupply your armies.

I mean sure during the Imji war the Koreans may have ran away from towns away from warfare, but it can't be all of them.

During the Imjin war the Japanese conquered many major cities, including the capital, because the Korean army ran away.

If the Japanese conquered korea they will eventually recruits native Koreans in some lower class armies, there must be Koreans that would join right?

In 1907 Korea had a population of 13 million and in 1910 Japan annexed Korea. In 1938 about 3,000 Koreans applied to join the Japanese army and 400 were accepted, in 1943 300,000 Koreans applied and 6,000 were accepted, in 1944 Japan started drafting Korean soldiers because WW2 was going badly for them. Based on this in the 16th century it seems unlikely that a significant number of Koreans would willingly fight for Japan. Also it's unlikely that Japan would want soldiers who would rather run away than fight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_...bilization_Law

Sir can we add a new model horse/Armored horse from Total War Attila ? because i see so many there.

In theory it should be possible. Though as the skeletons are likely to be different I'd need something that could convert an armoured horse from Attila into something I could add to a S2TW skeleton.

[nguyenmaithu]

Sir can we add a new model horse/Armored horse from Total War Attila ? because i see so many there.

But which cavalry unit will have armored horse?

[Jinyiwei]

during the Japanese colonization, the empire of japan recruited and trained many Korean soldiers, how does it make any sense if you have conquered the whole of korea and for the rest of your campaign game you are un able to recruit any Koreans????? Koreans fought for many other powers in the history, during the Han dynasty China conquered northern peninsula of korea and trained local Koreans to guard towns and villages, during the Tang dynasty's rule in korea many Koreans were recruited. during the ming dynasty, there are many Koreans in Liaodong province that were apart of the Ming army. even then during the manchu's qing dynasty, like Mongolian Chinese there are small amount of Koreans that joined the banner army.
Yes in the first couple of years, the Koreans under foreign rule may be unlikely to join the invader's army, but as time goes on this will change.
according to your logic, why if I play as the Korean I'm able to recruit foreign army in foreign regions then???

[mhawari]

Hmm maybe the persian/sassanid cavalry will suitable with chinese cavalry, but modder from ROTK mod have convert a Lu Bu Horse. Here for example: (sorry this is roman iron cavalry)

[nguyenmaithu]

oh finally =)) won the Ming dynasty campaing =)))

[[N2]Kami]

I have some question regarding the chinese cannon. Do you have this cannon model in the game?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I remember the ming has a trigun but I have never seen them in action so maybe they look like that.

[nguyenmaithu]

I have some question regarding the chinese cannon. Do you have this cannon model in the game?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG]66.media.tumblr.com/f87d9b0552235aa2cc6443dfe355f1f5/tumblr_o3v5ygm28a1v49c3so1_1280.jpg[/IMG]

I remember the ming has a trigun but I have never seen them in action so maybe they look like that.

can't see your image

[uanime5]

during the Japanese colonization, the empire of japan recruited and trained many Korean soldiers

They trained 400 in 1938 and 6,000 in 1943, and this was after controlling a country of over 13 million for 30 years. So they only trained a small number of soldiers after decades of rule.

how does it make any sense if you have conquered the whole of korea and for the rest of your campaign game you are un able to recruit any Koreans?????

How does it make any sense that conquering a country will make the people willing to fight for you in foreign wars? Can you name some examples of when this has happened.

Koreans fought for many other powers in the history, during the Han dynasty China conquered northern peninsula of korea and trained local Koreans to guard towns and villages, during the Tang dynasty's rule in korea many Koreans were recruited.

Which is represented in game by having some Korean units defend a city no matter who is controlling it. It would not be accurate to represent either as allowing Japan to recruit Korean soldiers to attack Korea or China.

Also both of these occasions where during the Three Kingdoms of Korea period, before Korea became a united country.

during the ming dynasty, there are many Koreans in Liaodong province that were apart of the Ming army.

1) The Liaodong province borders Korea.
2) Korea was a tributary state of China and much of Korean culture came from China.

As a result there are some reasons why the Koreans would want to fight for China. As Koreans considered Japan to be inferior to China there's no real reason why they would want to fight for Japan.

even then during the manchu's qing dynasty, like Mongolian Chinese there are small amount of Koreans that joined the banner army.

How does a small number of Koreans fighting for China justify being able to recruit an army in Korea if you conquer them?

Yes in the first couple of years, the Koreans under foreign rule may be unlikely to join the invader's army, but as time goes on this will change.

During this war Japan massacred whole cities by beheading men, women, children, and even their pets; cut people's noses off and sent them back to Japan (they didn't have enough space for severed heads, so they used noses); abducted artisans and sent them back to Japan (mainly potters); abducted women and sent them back to Japan; worked prisoners to death; burned down many buildings; looted the entire country; and destroyed much of the agricultural land. If will take more than a few years for the Koreans to willingly fight for Japan.

according to your logic, why if I play as the Korean I'm able to recruit foreign army in foreign regions then???

Cultural differences. Throughout history Koreans tended to retreat to fortified locations to prevent themselves being conquered by China, for example the Tang dynasty which sent armies of a million into their country. The Chinese, Japanese, Mongols, Tibetans, and Jurchen didn't respond this way to invaders; which is why you can recruit more units in these regions.

I made the Koreans act this way based on careful research regarding how the Koreans responded to various invasions and I don't appreciate your constant complaining because this system makes it slightly more difficult to conquer Korea.

I have some question regarding the chinese cannon. Do you have this cannon model in the game?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG]66.media.tumblr.com/f87d9b0552235aa2cc6443dfe355f1f5/tumblr_o3v5ygm28a1v49c3so1_1280.jpg[/IMG]

I remember the ming has a trigun but I have never seen them in action so maybe they look like that.

The trigun looks more like this:
https://www.quora.com/How-powerful-w...er-improvement

[[N2]Kami]

Here's the image

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

About this, is it hard to rigid a model? I don't have any experience so far. And I can't make cavalry units with naginata have an officer carry a standard as a spear. I thought they use the same yari horse and yari animation.

[Jinyiwei]

I know what you mean, but unable to recruit a single Korean unit is retarded, you could make foreign factions only able to recruit low quality Korean troops??? otherwise I've seen many jurchen factions loosing their original province that produces jurchen army to other factions after conquring some lands of korea, and they are unable to reproduce new units. When manchus invaded China, many of their Chinese soldiers were first forced to join their army, they were called Baoyi, and Chinese tend to run away from manchus too during the history, there was 5 million Chinese in Liaoxi-Liaodong province, after Nurhaci took Liaodong, the population droped bellow 200 thousands, many were killed and enslaved but most fled to Shan hai guan.
During ww2, there were over 610 thousands koreans joined the japanese army, that's only 30 years of colonizing korea.
Korea plays a huge role in this mod, at this point conquering Korea is pointless, because you are unable to defend it if you lost your traditional territories to other factions.

[[N2]Kami]

I think there are 2 solutions. Firstly you can enable something like mercenary or low quality bandit troops that serve as garrison or cannon fodder. Or defected, converted troops.
Secondly you can make factions being able to recruit troops in enemy provinces after some condition like religion required, rel_xx, at that province. Or you can raze the building to the ground and build your own recruitment buildings.

Just my 2 points even though I haven't played the mod yet.

[Jay the Byzantine]

610,000 Koreans were recruited by Japan during WWII?!

[uanime5]

I know what you mean, but unable to recruit a single Korean unit is retarded, you could make foreign factions only able to recruit low quality Korean troops???

I have explained twice why this would not only be ahistorical but would also cause problems from a gameplay perspective. I am not going to explain a third time, and if you call me or my decisions retarded again I will delete you post and report you. The rules make it quick clear that abuse will not be tolerated.

otherwise I've seen many jurchen factions loosing their original province that produces jurchen army to other factions after conquring some lands of korea, and they are unable to reproduce new units.

Unfortunately I cannot make the AI chose some regions over other regions.

When manchus invaded China, many of their Chinese soldiers were first forced to join their army, they were called Baoyi, and Chinese tend to run away from manchus too during the history, there was 5 million Chinese in Liaoxi-Liaodong province, after Nurhaci took Liaodong, the population droped bellow 200 thousands, many were killed and enslaved but most fled to Shan hai guan.

This was due to a revolt by the Han Chinese in Liaodong in 1623.

During ww2, there were over 610 thousands koreans joined the japanese army, that's only 30 years of colonizing korea.

What is your source for this? According to the Wikipedia article I posted earlier between 1938-43 only 17,664 Korean applicants were accepted by the Japanese army.

Korea plays a huge role in this mod, at this point conquering Korea is pointless, because you are unable to defend it if you lost your traditional territories to other factions.

Which is one of the reasons why the invasion of Korea by Japan, China, and the Jurchens failed. So including it makes the mod more realistic.

I think there are 2 solutions. Firstly you can enable something like mercenary or low quality bandit troops that serve as garrison or cannon fodder. Or defected, converted troops.
Secondly you can make factions being able to recruit troops in enemy provinces after some condition like religion required, rel_xx, at that province. Or you can raze the building to the ground and build your own recruitment buildings.

There's a also a third option which is if people want the mod to be different they should change it themselves, rather than whine until I change it for them.

[szsh55291904]

I am so sorry to reply you too late. I think you had found the correct one. I want to translating your mod in Chinese, do you think it is OK? And I hadn't known how to upload a screenshot a week ago , so I just uploaded a map. I think I can upload the screenshot to you in three months, maybe.

[BulletProof Monk]

Korean archers range is.. bad.. (for seemingly no reason).

Capital kabsa archers (60) cost 838 and to 200 retain - range 200 (one region / best in faction short of hero)

vs

jurchen archers (90) only cost 147 and 43 to retain - Range 200 (all regions they own/standard)

Armoured Jurchen archers cost only 83 to retain. - Range 225

So I wonder why this is, to be competitive you need the most costly archer unit, it needs to get there, then it's facing 5 vs 1 odds. (same price 5vs1). Also the korean unit is smaller at 60 vs 90, altho this doesn't bother me, it sure does in when they attack your castle and out range you because lol.

My traditional horn bow (it's an in korea made replica I spend a lot of time there) can hit up to 300-350meters (obviously a little op in game) Yumi from what I can see fires around 120m.. (so this makes sense already). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gakgung


Now we get to the Jurchen/Chinese "ARCHERY EQUIPMENT The Manchu bow was a very distinct type of Asian composite recurve bow that, as I will attempt to argue, was initially tailored for use by the pre-conquest Jurchen hunters / warriors. Like most of the composite bows from Asia its limbs were made from water-buffalo horn on a wood or bamboo core with sinew on the back. Either end of the bow had rigid wooden ears attached to them that act as levers to help bend the bow limbs. This construction was also used for what are frequently considered the most advanced of traditional bows; the Turkish and Korean composite bows. The efficiency of these bows comes from the fact that they makes best use of the composite construction with relatively short limbs and light ears. The large Manchu bow is quite different with massive rigid ears on comparatively large and heavy limbs that all slow the bow down. Because of this, the arrow velocity is relatively low and the range is rather short. One wonders why the Manchus, with access to goods from all over Asia, kept so true to their own seemingly inefficient bow design. The answer probably lies in their hunting history: The Jurchen hunted a wide range of animals in the forests of present-day Manchuria" http://mandarinmansion.com/articles/...%20Archery.pdf

Chinese called Korean people 'bow people'* (some slang) Because Korean armies were kinda Aholes (shoot and run into fortress) although you know this I read lol. When they fought outside they prefered Guerrilla warfare.

So you compare them by cost and availability...

(korean)Regional archers cost 353 and 85 to retain - Range 175
vs
jurchen archers (90) only cost 147 and 43 to retain - Range 200 (all regions they own/standard)
Armoured Jurchen(60) archers cost only 83 to retain. - Range 225 (more fair due to unit size/stats but still bs range and cost)
So the standard troop has 50 less range than its cost to retain counterpart? and is twice the cost of the standard.

My personal suggestion would be to make regional archers 200 range, and Capital kabsa 225 for the price standard it's fair enough.
Not to mention game play, fortress is the only way korea can withstand. rendered pointless by a cheap mass produced units that out compete on most important aspects. Not only do Jurchen recruit faster for less, but have better range and are cheaper to keep. bais? I only ask because it seems to repeat constantly. I like a lot of the balancing you've done but after playing as both Yuan and Korea... holy hell I smashed korea easy easier than it should have been siege and arrow scum them. And I played a few set up games as korea and seems the AI isn't dumb, they keep your archers from the walls and pile in with masses of spearmen meaning korea's only *advantage* being bows and castles are rendered useless.

Other - 1600 hours in Shogun 2, 25 hours on your v.2 mod. I love it but it's a little skitchy

- This issue seems to repeat in bowcav, 175 range for koreans yet chinese/jurchen standard is 200 - 225. ( but I don't care I don't use it )

Edit: hwacha slightly op lmao

[[N2]Kami]

There's a also a third option which is if people want the mod to be different they should change it themselves, rather than whine until I change it for them.

Well then we would all lost our beloved part time job =)))

[mhawari]

Sir so sorry for oot, but how can i make campaign became 12 turn per years ? should i edit the startpos.esf ?

[uanime5]

Korean archers range is.. bad.. (for seemingly no reason).

Capital kabsa archers (60) cost 838 and to 200 retain - range 200 (one region / best in faction short of hero)

vs

jurchen archers (90) only cost 147 and 43 to retain - Range 200 (all regions they own/standard)

Armoured Jurchen archers cost only 83 to retain. - Range 225

Let's compare all the stats rather than just 3 of them.

Unit: Capital kabsa archers
Cost: 855
Upkeep: 220
Armour: 4
Melee Attack: 4
Charge: 1
vs cavalry: 5
Melee defence: 4
Range: 200
Morale: 7

Unit: Jurchen Hunters
Cost: 150
Upkeep: 45
Armour: 1
Melee Attack: 2
Charge: 4
vs cavalry: 0
Melee defence: 1
Range: 200
Morale: 1

Unit: Jurchen Armoured Archers
Cost: 300
Upkeep: 85
Armour: 3
Melee Attack: 4
Charge: 6
vs cavalry: 8
Melee defence: 6
Range: 225
Morale: 2

I would also like to point out that Confucian factions have lower attack and defence stats, and higher costs due to the decline in their army. By contrast the Jurchens have higher attack and defence stats due to their harsh environment, lower costs due to their nomadic lifestyle, and lower morale due to their lack of a state.

So I wonder why this is, to be competitive you need the most costly archer unit, it needs to get there, then it's facing 5 vs 1 odds. (same price 5vs1). Also the korean unit is smaller at 60 vs 90, altho this doesn't bother me, it sure does in when they attack your castle and out range you because lol.

Why are you talking about being competitive? Not ever culture was equally as good at combat as every other culture. The Koreans are weaker militarily because at the time their military was poor.

My traditional horn bow (it's an in korea made replica I spend a lot of time there) can hit up to 300-350meters (obviously a little op in game) Yumi from what I can see fires around 120m.. (so this makes sense already). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gakgung

Given that these bows would massively out ranged the Japanese musket I have to wonder why the Korean archers weren't able to defeat them. I have head that most Koreans during this time period weren't able to fire an arrow this far.

Now we get to the Jurchen/Chinese "ARCHERY EQUIPMENT The Manchu bow was a very distinct type of Asian composite recurve bow that, as I will attempt to argue, was initially tailored for use by the pre-conquest Jurchen hunters / warriors. Like most of the composite bows from Asia its limbs were made from water-buffalo horn on a wood or bamboo core with sinew on the back. Either end of the bow had rigid wooden ears attached to them that act as levers to help bend the bow limbs. This construction was also used for what are frequently considered the most advanced of traditional bows; the Turkish and Korean composite bows. The efficiency of these bows comes from the fact that they makes best use of the composite construction with relatively short limbs and light ears. The large Manchu bow is quite different with massive rigid ears on comparatively large and heavy limbs that all slow the bow down. Because of this, the arrow velocity is relatively low and the range is rather short. One wonders why the Manchus, with access to goods from all over Asia, kept so true to their own seemingly inefficient bow design. The answer probably lies in their hunting history: The Jurchen hunted a wide range of animals in the forests of present-day Manchuria" http://mandarinmansion.com/articles/...%20Archery.pdf

These quotes are also useful:

"The weight of the arrow provided considerable impact and their sheer size helped in preventing a wounded animal from getting far after being hit. They are also remarkably durable and easy to retreive in the wild."

"“The force-draw curve [of the Manchu bow] is superior to any modern composite and the stored energy, for a given maximum effort, is probably the highest of any bow that has ever been in general use."

"The rigid ears also help in the stability of the bow as slight fluctuations in draw length do not result in significant fluctuations in arrow velocity, thus solving one of the archer’s main concerns: the need for consistent draw lengths."

“It is not unreasonable to say that the Sino-Tatar bow [the Manchu bow] was one of the most deadly forms of this weapon ever devised for warfare. Though the maximum range of typical examples is only about 150-180 yards (150-165 meters), at half these distances they would hit with great force and drive their way through almost any form of protection that their enemies might have devised.”

So the Jurchen bow would have slow velocity than most bows, greater range than the Japanese bow, have better accuracy than all bows, and deal much more damage due to the heavy arrow.

Also are there any sources regarding how the Koreans did in combat against the Jurchens? I'm guess the Jurchens wouldn't attack Korea if they Korean bow was able to destroy their armies from a distance.

So you compare them by cost and availability...

Their availability is different because they way each culture trained troops was different. This also ignores that the Jurchen's best archers are horse archers, not foot units.

(korean)Regional archers cost 353 and 85 to retain - Range 175
vs
jurchen archers (90) only cost 147 and 43 to retain - Range 200 (all regions they own/standard)
Armoured Jurchen(60) archers cost only 83 to retain. - Range 225 (more fair due to unit size/stats but still bs range and cost)
So the standard troop has 50 less range than its cost to retain counterpart? and is twice the cost of the standard.

Yes because not every faction is identical and nomadic factions have hardier and cheaper warriors than more developed societies. This is why the Chinese often hired nomadic people over those who lived in towns.

Not to mention game play, fortress is the only way korea can withstand. rendered pointless by a cheap mass produced units that out compete on most important aspects. Not only do Jurchen recruit faster for less, but have better range and are cheaper to keep. bais? I only ask because it seems to repeat constantly. I like a lot of the balancing you've done but after playing as both Yuan and Korea... holy hell I smashed korea easy easier than it should have been siege and arrow scum them. And I played a few set up games as korea and seems the AI isn't dumb, they keep your archers from the walls and pile in with masses of spearmen meaning korea's only *advantage* being bows and castles are rendered useless.

What do you expect from a country the Japanese conquered after a 6 months military campaign?

- This issue seems to repeat in bowcav, 175 range for koreans yet chinese/jurchen standard is 200 - 225. ( but I don't care I don't use it )

The Korean unit is a militia, the Chinese units are at Ashigaru or samurai level, and the Jurchen units all have +25 range.

Edit: hwacha slightly op lmao

It was pretty devastating.

[BulletProof Monk]

You said it yourself, the reason Jurchen didn't invade with any success had a lot more to do with if a million chinese couldn't.

Suwon castle is a great show, I've been to others mountain-side/built castles and you can see why anyone would have a lot of trouble siege them.. Siege implies surrounding, many only have one side you can effectively hit at once. On top of that the local population would often go to the castle and help defend it, something not seen in MANY places. (but not unknown).
- On top of that constant guerrilla warfare, and mallita/monk armies appearing and fighting also.

I know you know this as I read what you wrote, but bows/out ranging and being determined not to give in is how they beat the mongolians... and most others that came along. They fell and submitted to become a tributary state but only because their country was on fire. You could also blame weak leadership both monarchy and advisers. Other than that it wasn't practical to control/fight/cost effective. They even moved the capital at one point knowing the horsemen couldn't do anything lol. (not it only became a tribute state, most other nations china to iraq and egypt were forced to bow down weirdly... they couldn't submit korea the same.)

Think about it if they outranged Koreans with those bows they would have just equip everyone with a bow and sit 25m out or range while showering them... (ironically this is exactly what happens in the game) But they didn't, 1m chinese army failed, Jurchen failed.. and they only gave in once their country was burned.

Moving strait onto the actual VS japan yeah, weak leadership /no standing army/few idiot choices. ( I feel like you actually said some of this)
national hero Admiral Yi with 13 ships utterly raped the japanese fleet that was 10x as big.

Sure it's known I know, but it makes you wonder they throw general Admiral Yi Sun-sin out of office despite his wins O_O Clearly there was a problem with leadership/government apposed to the ACTUAL armed forces. Giving office to morons and taking people out that actually know what they're doing.

I don't know, I can understand you want to make them all different and you want to show numbers (despite unit cap by number by making them cheaper etc). So having them all alike isn't 'okay' BUT, for one unit for 200 range korean soldiers you may as well just hire 9 units of juchan Flood your enemies with cheaper more effective units. when two stacks attack your castle and you have a fairly mid-range 60% archer heavy army to defend it. and those two stacks are 75%+ archers who all outrange you... you get raped. Yet in history this never happened despite many more than the 2 stacks represent.

The inability to defend with your own national castles with your national units when they are famed for their castles and archers is hilariously out of place. The Imjin wars failures can be placed to timing more than anything, idiot commanders (that honestly just nobles handed jobs/incompetence) and horrible leadership. compared to the success of navy and other people/monk based armies lead by people that actually knew what they were doing you can tell something was wrong.

- Who charges up a hill with cav into guns and yari >.> an idiot. No wonder the men run, they were lead by people such as these. Inexperienced and undeserving.

The northern invasions by the nomadic peoples in history/mongolians later turned out to be vietnam on crack a horrific disaster for everyone because they nearly coined guerrilla and peasant warfare.

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but it seems so off... No a nation with heavy armour and one of the best bows in history would have better stats.. even if they did cost more... to limit range is crazy. under the guise of balance. While totally crippling them and making them worthless/stupid to buy.

Wiki (although not great) is fairly correct. Look up Mongolian invasions of korea and the red-turban invasion, if you care to know more about how they fight and what they resisted.

[[N2]Kami]

THE CROSSBOW IS TOO DEADLY. They wipe out half of my 200 or 250 men unit in a single volley.

I know that their range is small but still, and the AI like to stack a lot of them at one place. My cav once got into an ambush and bang, they disappear from radar =)))