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Thread: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

  1. #121

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    OMG, the brackets are citations to the bibliography.
    You failed to connect any causation. If it was clearly the result of Islamic teaching, then why does it exist where Islam is non- existent? Plus, I never said "poverty" was the cause, I said traditional rural community it was prevalent.
    Plus urbanization is the growth of urban areas in relation to rural areas (The proportion of the urban population to rural). It isn't urban growth, that is called urban growth. It laos have little to do with it. Urban centers tend to have more progressive ideas because the increase concentration of people new ideas are more readily accepted.

    I ask for sources and what you gave me was a truncated wikipedia article in which you completely ignored any evidence that contradicted your premise.
    BTW, what you do not know is that the analysis of the information got one bit wrong that I actually checked. You didn't even bothered to read your "own sources" if you had, you would had discovered it.
    I only posted prevalence and examples of Muslims going out of their way to defend pedophilia. I did not say that pedophilia is caused by Islam. I'm saying pedophilia in the Islamic world is. By your logic the Nazi Holocaust wasn't caused by anti-Semitism, because a lot of non-anti-Semites kill Jews too.

    Britain's Underage Muslim Marriage Epidemic

    Is Britain a LEDC?

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    I only posted prevalence and examples of Muslims going out of their way to defend pedophilia. I did not say that pedophilia is caused by Islam. I'm saying pedophilia in the Islamic world is. By your logic the Nazi Holocaust wasn't caused by anti-Semitism, because a lot of non-anti-Semites kill Jews too.

    Britain's Underage Muslim Marriage Epidemic

    Is Britain a LEDC?
    We covered this already; There are Christian communities that also married off your girls under the age of the majority. They used the religious doctrine to justify. The rpactice predates the writing of both holy books which is why it exist in communities with no affiliation with either Islam or Christianity.

    Your analogy is horrible. I am arguing that it s a by product of traditionalist views.

    BTW, we went full circle; you again cherry picked another article. For what it is worth, people could go to the wikipedia article you "mined" and see the issue transcends religious affiliation.
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  3. #123

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Nobody said anything about the Christians. I am unsure what you are arguing against. All I said is that pedophilia is supported by most Muslims, including, as I showed above, by a lot of the biggest imams in Britain. Now I personally believe the facts show it is an Ilamic thing, but whether it is really caused by 'traditionalism', paganism, wealth, or whatever, that does not change the fact that they are pedophiles.

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Moew suppositions and ignoring of evidence that doesn't fit your assumptions.
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  5. #125

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    I have posted plenty of evidence. Let's let the readers decide.

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Moew suppositions and ignoring of evidence that doesn't fit your assumptions.
    The only thing that is clear is that you are trying to say that if the problem isn't exlusive it can't be attributed to something. Which is intellectually ridiculous.
    A single problem usually has alot of different sources. Just because child marriage exists somewhere else in the world doesn't excuse it from being a problem in the Islmic world. Which it quite clearly is.
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    there is a big difference from saying that it is a problem to say that it is something inherent to islam (Dr. Legend position).

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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    The only thing that is clear is that you are trying to say that if the problem isn't exlusive it can't be attributed to something. Which is intellectually ridiculous.
    A single problem usually has alot of different sources. Just because child marriage exists somewhere else in the world doesn't excuse it from being a problem in the Islmic world. Which it quite clearly is.
    Well there is this...
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    there is a big difference from saying that it is a problem to say that it is something inherent to islam (Dr. Legend position).
    I do not believe anyone has "excused it." Child marriages isn't inherent with religious beliefs, they predated it. The wiki"hell" article cited (technically by me, but used by DL) list several countries has being the worse offenders. He ignored every single country that did not fit into his argument. Ironically, he ignored the best example (probably because he didn't realize it was a Muslim majority country).

    The facts are the practice is pervasive in any rural less developed country where it is a necessity where young girls are taken care of since they are considered a burden, not an asset of the family. The fact that these same group of people migrate to developed countries doesn't mean they will drop their traditional values and attitude. Again it doesn't make it right, it just is. The fact that they might use religion as justification is not relevant since the practice predates religion. Their are many things promoted in the Bible and or the Qu'ron that would be morally objectionable today, like; incest, child marriages, polygamy, murder, etc...

    The practice isn't "promoted" but is tolerated as a practical solution to an apparent problem. In many cultures families will object to a marriage if the man isn;t a person of means or wealth. This tends to mean that young girls marry much older men as the younger man will have less wealth. This is true in rural China as well where Islam and Christianity have little social Cultural influences. However, married men extramarital affairs are discretely "tolerated."

    So yeah it is an Islamic World Problem. But it is also a Christian World Problem and an non- Abrahamic religion world problem. Now if you want to ignore the fact it exist everywhere, then by all means... ignore the evidence. Personally, I think religious beliefs of any kind is based on superstitious responses to unanswerable questions. its morality and ethics is based on old world social construction and have little bearing on modern world issues. However, it was stated in response to current practices at the time the folklore were written.
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  9. #129

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Nobody is ignoring anything. Let's remember what we are discussing. The topic was originally about Pakistan, and later it came to encompass the Islamic world in general. Rather than defend the practice objectively, you have resorted to a kneejerk "but what about Christians?" response. But okay, let's say the practice has nothing to do with Islam. How does this change the fact that the majority of people in numerous Muslim countries, including communities in Britain, are supporters of pedophilia?

  10. #130
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Nobody is ignoring anything. Let's remember what we are discussing. The topic was originally about Pakistan, and later it came to encompass the Islamic world in general. Rather than defend the practice objectively, you have resorted to a kneejerk "but what about Christians?" response. But okay, let's say the practice has nothing to do with Islam. How does this change the fact that the majority of people in numerous Muslim countries, including communities in Britain, are supporters of pedophilia?
    I never said nor argued, what about Christians! I stated that the root is socio- cultural. The practice is part of every culture regardless of religious beliefs. The sources bear this out.
    I also stated the practice exist in developed countries because people migrate from areas where the practice is common.

    For the record, I gave you an opportunity to learn this on your own, you chose, instead to pick and choose the information that supported your predisposition.
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  11. #131

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    But you admit that Pakistanis and numerous other Muslim countries are pedophiles, right? I mean, whether it is caused by poverty or whatever.

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    But you admit that Pakistanis and numerous other Muslim countries are pedophiles, right? I mean, whether it is caused by poverty or whatever.
    I prefer more serious discussions. Claiming an entire ethnic/ national group is "any thing" is plain silly.
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  13. #133

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Not entire. Just a majority.
    Last edited by Prodromos; March 10, 2016 at 10:16 AM.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    This discussion is over; save your suppositions!
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  15. #135
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    Default Obama for Cameron:"Cameron let Libya to become a s***show"

    Merged due to insufficiency as an OP. ~Iskar

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/barack-obama-says-david-cameron-allowed-libya-to-become-a-s-show-a6923976.html


    Barack Obama has sharply criticised David Cameron for the UK’s role in allowing Libya to become a “ show” after the fall of the dictator Muammar Gaddafi, in an unprecedented attack on a British leader by a serving US President.
    Mr Obama said that following a successful military intervention to aid rebels during the 2011 Arab Spring revolt, Libya was left to spiral out of control – due largely to the inaction of America’s European allies.
    In a candid US magazine interview, Mr Obama said: “When I go back and I ask myself what went wrong… there’s room for criticism, because I had more faith in the Europeans, given Libya’s proximity, being invested in the follow-up.”

    Singling out the British Prime Minister, he suggested that Mr Cameron had taken his eye off Libya after being “distracted by a range of other things”.
    Mr Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy, then the French President, pushed hard for the bombing raids on Colonel Gaddafi’s forces that led to his fall, but since 2011 Libya has sunk further into violence and civil war, and latterly has become a focal point for Isis in North Africa.
    Mr Obama went on: “We actually executed this plan as well as I could have expected: We got a UN mandate, we built a coalition, it cost us $1bn – which, when it comes to military operations, is very cheap. We averted large-scale civilian casualties, we prevented what almost surely would have been a prolonged and bloody civil conflict. And despite all that, Libya is a mess.”
    Referring to that mess in private, Mr Obama reportedly uses the more colourful term, “ show”The comments will be a severe embarrassment to Mr Cameron, who has often been forced to defend British involvement in Libya on the grounds that Western intervention helped to avert a bloodbath. They will also place strain on the transatlantic alliance as coalition forces target Isis positions in Syria and Iraq.
    Mr Cameron’s spokeswoman said he had frequently made clear that he still believed military action in Libya was “absolutely the right thing to do” and stressed that the Government had put support for the country on the agenda when the UK hosted a meeting of G8 leaders in 2013.

    She said: “We would share the President’s assessment that there are real challenges in Libya. That’s why we are continuing to work hard with international partners to support a process in Libya that puts in place a government that can bring stability, and why we are talking about how we can support such a government in the future.”
    Speaking at length to The Atlantic, Mr Obama revealed that the Prime Minister had risked damaging the countries’ “special relationship” by delaying an increase in defence spending to meet a Nato target of 2 per cent of GDP. Alluding to Mr Cameron’s foot-dragging, Mr Obama said: “Free riders aggravate me.”

    When the two came face to face at the G7 summit in June 2015, Mr Obama told Mr Cameron: “You have to pay your fair share.” The next month, Chancellor George Osborne’s summer Budget included a defence spending rise.
    Mr Obama also said Mr Cameron’s failures had affected his decision not to enforce a “red line” over President Bashar al-Assad’s use of chemical weapons during the Syrian civil war. The President had planned a strike against Assad’s forces in August 2013, following a deadly sarin gas attack by the regime on civilians in a Damascus suburb. The strike was called off at the 11th hour. One “major factor” in the decision, the President said, “was the failure of Cameron to obtain the consent of his Parliament” for military action.

    During his White House tenure, Mr Obama explained, he has tried to encourage other nations to act in international matters without always waiting for the US to take the lead.
    “It was precisely to prevent the Europeans and the Arab states from holding our coats while we did all the fighting that we, by design, insisted” that they spearhead the Libyan intervention, he said, describing the strategy as “part of the anti-free rider campaign”.
    Mr Obama also said Mr Sarkozy, who left office the year after the Libyan intervention, had been keen to “trumpet” France’s involvement. The White House allowed him to take disproportionate credit for the air strikes, thus “[purchasing] France’s involvement in a way that made it less expensive and less risky for us,” Mr Obama said.
    A US president using such a language against a UK pm is astonishing. Basically Obama throws the responsibilty for the failure of Libya to Cameron. Right now there are thousands of Arab foreign "volunteers" in Libya ready to fight in case of western intervention. In other words the "best" thing the west can do is a Somalia scenario(a puppet regime depending on western aid and countless terrorists attacking all around the areas including Europe)
    Last edited by Iskar; March 11, 2016 at 08:31 AM.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    So. I have been reading over some threads here. Some people seriously think Trump is not a fascistoid moron or they (you?) just "support him" because they consider a Democrat administration could be even worse?

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    So. I have been reading over some threads here. Some people seriously think Trump is not a fascistoid moron or they (you?) just "support him" because they consider a Democrat administration could be even worse?
    Well, of course I would never support Trump, even if he runs against two extremely weak Democratic candidates, like Sanders or Hillary, but I wouldn't say he's a fascist moron either. In the past, Trump has supported the Democratic party, so his ultra-conservative and openly racist campaign does not seem to be in accordance with his previous political positions. In my opinion, he's clever enough to have realized that his only hope for getting the Republican nomination was by pretending to be politically extreme and supposedly honest, by not hesitating to state some "truths", every average American believes in, but whose existence the political status quo denies. It's ruthless populism on its purest form and, depending on how much the American public is disappointed about politics and his quality of life, it may lead him to victory. Of course, the fact that he's probably a hypocrite in his fascist views doesn't mean that we should treat him leniently. Not only due to our moral principles, but also because a potential success of his would be a worrying omen of fascism's popularity among the people and encourage other politicians to follow his far-right example.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; March 11, 2016 at 07:41 AM. Reason: Forgot a word.

  18. #138

    Default Re: Obama for Cameron:"Cameron let Libya to become a s***show"

    When trying to understand international politics, I find that it is best to imagine the players or nations as little children in a playground and suddenly it all starts to make sense.

    Here we have the classic situation of three red faced little boys and a broken window, its not too surprising that one of them might want to blame the others.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    I had no idea (he could be a manipulator). Excellent response imo.
    Last edited by makawa; March 11, 2016 at 07:15 AM.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Obama for Cameron:"Cameron let Libya to become a s***show"

    I know Obama's on his way out, and I'm sure he's in the "take no prisoners" mindset, but this is going to make things awkward for the last year... there'll be some tense phonecalls I'm sure. From how I've seen it reported Cameron tried to project a "buddy buddy" image of him and Obama, barbecues, hot dogs, basketball. Although I heard Obama made some disparaging remarks about Cameron after first meeting him - I suspect that Obama doesn't really care for the guy.
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