Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[PikeStance]

Not relevant. We are not necessarily talking about treatment by police. I am saying pederasty is very common in Islamic countries and either ignored, or outright accepted, by most people.

Then stop linking articles that do not support your premise. Can you prove the bold part? Thus far you have made ZERO attempt to do so. I do not want to see any more of your supposition or your cherry picked articles that does not support your premise above. Give me real hard evidence that you have some basis for your stance. After all you wanted to discuss this so bad you posted in this thread, but you have nothing but what YOU think. I couldn't careless what you think if you can't provide any evidence.

[Prodromos]

In Western countries pedophiles are considered to be scum. It's a universal view. Even in prison pedophiles are despised by everyone and quite routinely attacked. But in Muslim countries, you try ban pedophilia, you get told to shut up because it is unIslamic to do so, and everything goes back to normal. A child gets attacked, nobody cares, there is no scandal, the police tell you to off. Everywhere you see people openly admitting engaging in pedophilia. 60%, 80%, 90% in certain countries with dozens to hundreds of millions of inhabitants. I give you laws and statistics and all you do is call it "cherrypicking." The facts speak for themselves.

[PikeStance]

In Western countries pedophiles are considered to be scum. It's a universal view. Even in prison pedophiles are despised by everyone and quite routinely attacked. But in Muslim countries, you try ban pedophilia, you get told to shut up because it is unIslamic to do so, and everything goes back to normal. A child gets attacked, nobody cares, there is no scandal, the police tell you to off. Everywhere you see people openly admitting engaging in pedophilia. 60%, 80%, 90% in certain countries with dozens to hundreds of millions of inhabitants.

This is gibberish. I wouldn't dignify this by calling it a supposition.

I give you laws and statistics and all you do is call it "cherrypicking."

No, you gave me isolated news stories. You gave no statistics except for the numbers above which I am guessing you pulled out of no where since you cite no sources.

The facts speak for themselves.

When you decide to actually give facts, I would love to see what they say?

[mishkin]

I know I shouldn't, but the temptation to mention child abuse within the catholic church is enormous.
And children in the White Slave Traffic. Oh well. Goodbye. Namaste.

[Prodromos]

This is gibberish. I wouldn't dignify this by calling it a supposition.


No, you gave me isolated news stories. You gave no statistics except for the numbers above which I am guessing you pulled out of no where since you cite no sources.


When you decide to actually give facts, I would love to see what they say?

I have given you the statistics. plus common sense. Pederasty is a non-issue in Islamic countries. Why? The only answer is that they approve of it. Most statistics I've found are for Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is likely because these are the only countries Westerners have interacted with recently. There is no incentive to study the prevalence in other countries. Prior to coalition troops becoming familiar with Muslim pederasty ~10 years ago, I think Westerners were largely ignorant of its scope or even existence. But I think it's at least obvious that pedophile marriages are accepted.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I know I shouldn't, but the temptation to mention child abuse within the catholic church is enormous.
And children in the White Slave Traffic. Oh well. Goodbye. Namaste.

I'd say that Mormons might be a much better example of this. To my knowledge there is nothing in the OT or NT that allow molestation of little boys. Molesting kids isn't exactly part of the Catholic religion (although in OT slavery and sex captives are permitted). In the Quran and some Hadiths they permit the taking of captives and women as concubines. That is essentially the difference. Though outside of some fringe groups in the woods, ISIS and a few people in Saudi Arabia I don't know any country that accepts this.
Why Mormons then? Well it's the only thing in the west I could think of where young girls are pressured into marrying older men and some other religious nonsense.

[PikeStance]

I have given you the statistics.

You rpovided no statistics except for your made up percentage a few posts ago.

plus common sense. Pederasty is a non-issue in Islamic countries. Why? The only answer is that they approve of it. Most statistics I've found are for Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is likely because these are the only countries Westerners have interacted with recently. There is no incentive to study the prevalence in other countries. Prior to coalition troops becoming familiar with Muslim pederasty ~10 years ago, I think Westerners were largely ignorant of its scope or even existence. But I think it's at least obvious that pedophile marriages are accepted.

Your knowledge is not up to date. The US has a Naval base in Bahrain and have been allies with Qatar and UAE for decades. The uS has also been an ally with Saudi Arabia as well. There are a number of large US companies that operate in those countries. The US probably had the least contact with three countries you mentioned until the past 10 years. However, the US(Westerners) have extensive contact with a number of Muslim countries. I do not think this, I know this!

Marriages of girls under 18 are still common in many rural less developed countries. This practice predates any religious dogma. The same goes for female gentalia mutilation, etc...

Please stop with the supposition and what you think is common sense.

[Prodromos]

There are studies, documentaries, that show just how prevalent pedophilia is in Islamic countries. These are not assumptions. Things like pederasty, FGM, etc. are common. This is fundamental to the culture. In Western countries there are a few dozen cases here and there, whereas in the Islamic countries it is 30, 40, 60, 80 percent of the popluation

Tourists and small contingents of Western troops aren't what I'm talking about. Westerners in countries like Afghanistan lived alongside locals and had total control over the country. Troops were not living in fancy districts or sticking to beautified tourist areas. They were able essentially to see the local culture with an objective eye, rather than through a rosy foreigner's lens. Whereas in other countries the locals and their governments, obviously have an interest in masking the ugly aspects of their culture. Hanging gays publicly in the UAE isn't likely. But if you were to see how they are treated privately and away from Western eyes, it is not pretty. So it is with other Muslim traditions such as pederasty and child marriages.

[PikeStance]

There are studies, documentaries, that show just how prevalent pedophilia is in Islamic countries. These are not assumptions. Things like pederasty, FGM, etc. are common. This is fundamental to the culture. In Western countries there are a few dozen cases here and there, whereas in the Islamic countries it is 30, 40, 60, 80 percent of the popluation.

Look forward to seeing these sources you claim

Tourists and small contingents of Western troops aren't what I'm talking about. Westerners in countries like Afghanistan lived alongside locals and had total control over the country. Troops were not living in fancy districts or sticking to beautified tourist areas. They were able essentially to see the local culture with an objective eye, rather than through a rosy foreigner's lens. Whereas in other countries the locals and their governments, obviously have an interest in masking the ugly aspects of their culture. Hanging gays publicly in the UAE isn't likely. But if you were to see how they are treated privately and away from Western eyes, it is not pretty. So it is with other Muslim traditions such as pederasty and child marriages.

I can tell you are not an expat.

[mishkin]

I'd say that Mormons might be a much better example of this. To my knowledge there is nothing in the OT or NT that allow molestation of little boys. Molesting kids isn't exactly part of the Catholic religion (although in OT slavery and sex captives are permitted). In the Quran and some Hadiths they permit the taking of captives and women as concubines. That is essentially the difference. Though outside of some fringe groups in the woods, ISIS and a few people in Saudi Arabia I don't know any country that accepts this.
Why Mormons then? Well it's the only thing in the west I could think of where young girls are pressured into marrying older men and some other religious nonsense.

I mentioned the church because I found "funny" how and how often this bastion of Western values have faced this problem within its ranks.
(We will talk any other day about the hypocrisy of Western society about what is sexually attractive) (Hint: Many times it is preferred an eighteen (even better if she looks sixteen) girl to a 25 or 30 y.o. woman).

[Prodromos]

Look forward to seeing these sources you claim


I can tell you are not an expat.

Not my kind of thing, no. I have traveled to a lot of countries, and I've noticed that the expat types tend to live in Westernized, wealthy parts of third-world countries. I mean they don't truly live as the locals do. It is nice, yes, to live in those countries for a few days or months as a wealthy expat, in areas not representative of the rest of the country, alongside Westernized/educated locals who hide their culture in front of you, with a Western passport to protect you from most abuses, but this is, like I said, a rosy foreigner's view of the country. Living in a 1000$-a-month mansion in Vietnam doesn't make you Vietnamese.

And I'll look for a few sources for you tomorrow m8.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I've lived in Southeast Asia for two and a half years now. My brother for four. You're talking straight out of your arse. My brother works as an English teacher, originally in the Thai public school system. He doesn't get paid in dollars, let alone thousands of them.

[Prodromos]

I'm sure everybody knows he isn't a local though, and everybody treats him as a foreigner. Most cultures instinctively welcome foreign guests and hide most ugly aspects of their culture. He is not treated the way a local would be. Asians in particular seem to idolize people from the West. If he were just another local, though, he would be nothing special in their eyes, and probably wouldn't have as good an experience in the country. This is nothing personal, or unique to third-world countries, though. People treat foreigners differentl than they do locals in almost every country.

[PikeStance]

Not my kind of thing, no. I have traveled to a lot of countries, and I've noticed that the expat types tend to live in Westernized, wealthy parts of third-world countries. I mean they don't truly live as the locals do. It is nice, yes, to live in those countries for a few days or months as a wealthy expat, in areas not representative of the rest of the country, alongside Westernized/educated locals who hide their culture in front of you, with a Western passport to protect you from most abuses, but this is, like I said, a rosy foreigner's view of the country. Living in a 1000$-a-month mansion in Vietnam doesn't make you Vietnamese.

Funny, I shop where the locals do, I walk where the locals do, I live where the locals do. With he exception of Dubai in which almost everyone you meet is an expat from somewhere (though mostly from the Middle East, I am inundated in the culture. Expats living in bog fancy villas or stuff you see in the movies. Most expats do not live that way.

I never felt "idolized." They do find American fascinating. I lived in a part of China were expats were rare to see. I had many kids stare at me in awe. In Beijing, Chinese from the countryside would use what little English they jnew to ask to take a picture with me. This isi no idolization, but fascination for something they rarely see. If you commit a cultural faux pas, they do not just pass it off. It in their culture to confront you directly. It is even harder working with them.... the slightest thing you do can piss them off and they won't tell you, but they are mad.

A western passport do not protect you from anything! You watch too many movies. The only thing you can hope for is that you can contact your embassy if you are arrested. When you are in a country, you are EXPECTED to know and follow all local laws.

And I'll look for a few sources for you tomorrow m8.

Good, hopefully, it is from a NGO or the UN on the issue.

[Prodromos]

Funny, I shop where the locals do, I walk where the locals do, I live where the locals do. With he exception of Dubai in which almost everyone you meet is an expat from somewhere (though mostly from the Middle East, I am inundated in the culture. Expats living in bog fancy villas or stuff you see in the movies. Most expats do not live that way.

That does not make you a local. The bolded part made me laugh.

I never felt "idolized." They do find American fascinating. I lived in a part of China were expats were rare to see. I had many kids stare at me in awe. In Beijing, Chinese from the countryside would use what little English they jnew to ask to take a picture with me. This isi no idolization, but fascination for something they rarely see. If you commit a cultural faux pas, they do not just pass it off. It in their culture to confront you directly. It is even harder working with them.... the slightest thing you do can piss them off and they won't tell you, but they are mad.

It is no secret that Asians view Westerners as gods, for racial and socio-economic reasons. You may not notice it, but I assure you that it is the case.

A western passport do not protect you from anything! You watch too many movies. The only thing you can hope for is that you can contact your embassy if you are arrested. When you are in a country, you are EXPECTED to know and follow all local laws.

It does protect you, because a local civilian or oficial is less likely to mess with you, due to fear of possible punishment by a local government that is not interested in causing an international incident, that could lead to a deterioration in diplomatic/military ties, just to pick on a Western tourist. It is not a guaranteed safety, but you do have more safety from local abuse than a local does.

Here are yuor sources.

Some Islamic marriage practices have permitted marriage of girls below the age of 10, because Shariat law is based in part on the life and practices of Muhammad, the Prophet, as described in part in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. The Prophet married Aisha, his third wife, when she was about age six,[35] and consummated the marriage when she was about age nine.[36][37] Some mainstream Islamic scholars have suggested that it is not the chronological age that matters; marriageable age under Muslim religious law is the age when the guardians of the girl feel she has reached sexual maturity. Such determination of sexual maturity is a matter of subjective judgment, and there is a strong belief among most Muslims and scholars, based on Sharia, that marrying a girl less than 13 years old is an acceptable practice for Muslims.[38][39][40]

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This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates — Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) — are Islamic majority countries.[16]

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In 2013, Nigeria attempted to change Section 29, subsection 4 of its laws and thereby prohibit child marriages. This was opposed by Islamic states of Nigeria, who called any attempts to prohibit child marriages as un-Islamic. Christianity and Islam are practiced by roughly 50%-50% of its population respectively, and the country continues with personal laws from its British colonial era laws, where child marriages are forbidden for its Christians and allowed for its Muslims.[87][88] Child marriage is a divisive topic in Nigeria and widely practiced. In northern states, predominantly Muslim, over 50% of the girls marry before the age of 15.[89]

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In Morocco, child marriage is a common practice. Over 41,000 marriages every year involve child brides.[92] Before 2003, child marriages did not require a court or state's approval. In 2003, Morocco passed the family law (Moudawana) that raised minimum age of marriage for girls from 14 to 18, with the exception that underage girls may marry with the permission of the government recognized official/court and girl's guardian.[93][94] Over the 10 years preceding 2008, requests for child marriages have been predominantly approved by Morocco's Ministry for Social Development, and have increased (~ 29% of all marriages).[92][95] Some child marriages in Morocco are a result of Article 475 of the Moroccan penal code, a law that allows rapists to avoid punishment if they marry their underage victims.[96][97] Article 475 was amended in January 2014 after much campaigning, and rapists can legally no longer avoid sentencing by marrying their victim.[98]

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The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on Colonial India. It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities. This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. The age at which India's Muslim girls can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[112][113] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl aged 15 or even 12.[114] Several states of India claim specially high child marriage rates in their Muslim and tribal communities.[115][116] India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue. As of 2016, the situation has been legally rectified by The Prohibition of Child Marriage Act, 2006.


According to "National Plan of Action for Children 2005", published by Indian government's Department of Women and Child Development, set a goal to eliminate child marriage completely by 2010. In 2006, "The Prohibition of Child Marriage Act, 2006" was passed to prohibit solemnization of child marriages. This law states that men must be at least 21 years of age and women must but be at least 18 years of age to marry.
Some Muslim organizations planned to challenge the new law in the Supreme Court of India.[117] In latter years, various High courts in India - including the Gujarat High Court,[118]the Karnataka High Court[119] and the Madras High Court[120] - have ruled that the act prevails over any personal law (including Muslim personal law).

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According to two 2013 reports, over 50% of all marriages in Pakistan involve girls less than 18 years old.[121][122] Another UNICEF report claims 70 per cent of girls in Pakistan are married before the age of 16.[123] As with India and Africa, the UNICEF data for Pakistan is from a small sample survey in the 1990s.

The exact number of child marriages in Pakistan below the age of 13 is unknown, but rising according to the United Nations.[124] Andrew Bushell claims rate of marriage of 8- to 13-year-old girls exceeding 50% in northwest regions of Pakistan.[125]

Another custom in Pakistan, called swara or vani, involves village elders solving family disputes or settling unpaid debts by marrying off girls. The average marriage age of swaragirls is between 5 and 9.[123][126] Similarly, the custom of watta satta has been cited[127] as a cause of child marriages in Pakistan.

According to Population Council, 35% of all females in Pakistan become mothers before they reach the age of 18, and 67% have experienced pregnancy — 69% of these have given birth — before they reach the age of 19.[128] Less than 4% of married girls below the age of 19 had some say in choosing her spouse; over 80% were married to a near or distant relative. Child marriage and early motherhood is common in Pakistan.[129]

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Child marriage rates in Bangladesh are amongst the highest in the world.[16] Every 2 out of 3 marriages involve child marriages. According to statistics from 2005, 49% of women then between 25 and 29 were married by the age of 15 in Bangladesh.[81] According to the "State of the World's Children-2009" report, 63% of all women aged 20–24 were married before they were 18.[citation needed]

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A 2013 report claims 53% of all married women in Afghanistan were married before age 18, and 21% of all were married before age 15. Afghanistan's official minimum age of marriage for girls is 15 with her father's permission.[134] In all 34 provinces of Afghanistan, the customary practice of ba'ad is another reason for child marriages; this custom involves village elders, jirga, settling disputes between families or unpaid debts or ruling punishment for a crime by forcing the so-called guilty family to give their 5- to 12-year-old girls as a wife. Sometimes a girl is forced into child marriage for a crime her uncle or distant relative is alleged to have committed.[135][136]


Over half of Yemeni girls are married before 18, some by the age eight.[137][138] Yemen government's Sharia Legislative Committee has blocked attempts to raise marriage age to either 15 or 18, on grounds that any law setting minimum age for girls is un-Islamic. Yemeni Muslim activists argue that some girls are ready for marriage at age 9.[139][140]According to HRW, in 1999 the minimum marriage age 15 for women was abolished; the onset of puberty, interpreted by conservatives to be at age nine, was set as a requirement for consummation of marriage.[141] In practice "Yemeni law allows girls of any age to wed, but it forbids sex with them until the indefinite time they're 'suitable for sexual intercourse"[137] As with Africa, the marriage incidence data for Yemen in HRW report is from surveys between 1990 and 2000. Current data is difficult to obtain, given regional violence.


In April 2008 Nujood Ali, a 10-year-old girl, successfully obtained a divorce after being raped under these conditions. Her case prompted calls to raise the legal age for marriage to 18.[142] Later in 2008, the Supreme Council for Motherhood and Childhood proposed to define the minimum age for marriage at 18 years. The law was passed in April 2009, with the age voted for as 17. But the law was dropped the following day following maneuvers by opposing parliamentarians. Negotiations to pass the legislation continue.[143]Meanwhile, Yemenis inspired by Nujood's efforts continue to push for change, with Nujood involved in at least one rally.[144] In September 2013, an 8-year-old girl died of internal bleeding and uterine rupture on her wedding night after marrying a 40-year-old man.[145]


The widespread prevalence of child marriage in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been documented by human rights groups.[146][147] Saudi clerics have justified the marriage of girls as young as 9, with sanction from the judiciary.[148] There are no laws in place defining a minimum age of consent in Saudi Arabia, though drafts for possible laws have been created since 2011.[149]


Research by the United Nations Population Fund indicates that 28.2% of marriages in Turkey — almost one in three — involve girls under 18.[150][151]

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About 22% of Indonesian girls experience child marriage every year, and 12% get married before age 15, according to 2012 United Nations Population Fund report.[155] There are many reports of Muslim clerics taking multiple underage wives, some less than 12 years old. Indonesian prosecutors have attempted to stop this practice by demanding prison terms for such clerics, however local courts have issued soft sentences.[156]

^---

This is not a few cases here and there. This is endemic and very clearly fundamental to the culture. The people are not silent but openly supportive of the practice. And this is only for pedophilia. I could post studies about FGM and other practices, and, the results are unfortunately the same.

[chriscase]

I can believe endemic - probably to the condition of human beings unrestrained by law.

I think you are overreaching a bit when you say "fundamental to the culture". That's the kind of conclusion I'd venture even an anthropologist (i.e. someone qualified to say something like that) would be highly reluctant to claim.

[PikeStance]

That does not make you a local. The bolded part made me laugh.

Nothing makes you local. I know people that lived in foreign countries their whole life they emphasize that point.

It is no secret that Asians view Westerners as gods, for racial and socio-economic reasons. You may not notice it, but I assure you that it is the case.

LOL, The Chinese are some of the most conceited people on the planet. They know they have the oldest continuous culture and is one of the most innovative societies int he World. Westerners are NOT Gods, but interlopers. If you are not convinced, just visit Vietnam. I suggest you save your money and travel to Asia. I think you will be in for a real shock!

It does protect you, because a local civilian or oficial is less likely to mess with you, due to fear of possible punishment by a local government that is not interested in causing an international incident, that could lead to a deterioration in diplomatic/military ties, just to pick on a Western tourist. It is not a guaranteed safety, but you do have more safety from local abuse than a local does.

First rule we tell newbies is NEVER get into an argument with a local and NEVER get the police involved. Even if you are right, you are wrong! You have no protection AT ALL. You will either be arrested and go to jail or get deported. If you are lucky they will deport you. This is especially true in LEDCs.

Quick story. A friend my decided to import his car to Africa (I have no idea why, but he did). The car arrived in customs. A local takes him down to get the car. He is told by an employee that he will help him, but he needs a little help too (wink wink). He pays him off. The guy tells him to come back in a few days. When he returns, he is told to go to the supervisors office. He was asked by the supervisor why did he pay "his employee" when he should had paid him. He told him that he needed to pay him something extra and apologize for insulting him. I also worked with another co- worker who's friends got into an argument in bar. The police came out, beat them up and then arrested them.

Here are yuor sources.

Well, this is disingenuous and embarrasing for you. The sources all come from a single wikipedia page. I found it here.
It is curious that you fail to "analyze" non- Muslim countries. A good example is Central African Republic. It is also important to note, the worse countries are in Africa.

Why is this significant?
There is a connection between development/ traditional values and there is also a difference between rural and urban areas and this becomes a greater factor in LEDCs than in MEDCs. Boys are also preferred over girls. Girls are consider burden to the family and they are often promised and married off at a young age. We should expect to find in any LEDC rural areas a high rate of underage marriages. Therefore, I am not the least bit surprise that you have found high numbers in the countries who have chosen. You will find similar numbers in any LEDC countries.

Plus you use Sharia Law as an example, but Sharia law varies from country to country. Most Muslim countries the secular government is the final authority (exception is Iran and KSA). Plus the practice is also detailed in the Judea- Christian Bible. However, the root of the practice predates religious adherence. The practice was common long before any of the current religions existed (except for Hinduism and other minor religions like Zoroasterism. if you going to argue that Islam promotes the behavior then you also have to consider that Christians in Utah also find religious justification for child marriages.

I asked for sources and you decided to plagiarized from wikipedia. This suggest that you have no foundation for your belief and you just found anything you thought would be convincing.

[Prodromos]

This is the worst excuse I've ever heard. The sources are in the brackets and aren't from Wiki. I said pedophilia is supported by the majority of Muslims. This is caused by Islam most clearly, but whether the cause was ideology or poverty or urbanization is totally irrelevant - pedophilia is pedophilia.

[Prodromos]

Regarding western foreigners in the third world. I too have traveled to quite a few countries, and Western privilege is simply undeniable. People go out of their way to help you or to give you a good experience. By contrast try being an Asian or African. Not only will people shun you socially, but you are significantly less likely to be treated well by the authorities. Your anecdotes aren't similar to mine.

[PikeStance]

This is the worst excuse I've ever heard. The sources are in the brackets and aren't from Wiki. I said pedophilia is supported by the majority of Muslims. This is caused by Islam most clearly, but whether the cause was ideology or poverty or urbanization is totally irrelevant - pedophilia is pedophilia.

OMG, the brackets are citations to the bibliography.
You failed to connect any causation. If it was clearly the result of Islamic teaching, then why does it exist where Islam is non- existent? Plus, I never said "poverty" was the cause, I said traditional rural community it was prevalent.
Plus urbanization is the growth of urban areas in relation to rural areas (The proportion of the urban population to rural). It isn't urban growth, that is called urban growth. It laos have little to do with it. Urban centers tend to have more progressive ideas because the increase concentration of people new ideas are more readily accepted.

I ask for sources and what you gave me was a truncated wikipedia article in which you completely ignored any evidence that contradicted your premise.
BTW, what you do not know is that the analysis of the information got one bit wrong that I actually checked. You didn't even bothered to read your "own sources" if you had, you would had discovered it.