Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[Derpy Hooves]

I've been arguing about moderation's overly strict approach to sufficient OPs, and they still think it necessary that an ongoing event requires a dissertation's worth of remarks in the first post.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunmen-at...072729343.html



Now look i understand that most people dont even now where Burundi is but its true that there is a serious escalation of violence and danger for further conflict and destabilization. A civil war there has the potential for a spillover to neighbour countries like Rwanda and Congo. Lets hope things wont escalate further

Insufficient OP merged with Community Thread. ~Iskar

Well Stav, I guess that answers your question. You do need to write a dissertation


About Burundi, Congo is already destabilized

[snuggans]

not a dissertation, a leading question supported by your own written text, doesn't have to be a wall of text, but the point here is that people shouldnt create 'news ticker OPs' such as "something is reported to have happened, im going to create a space for others to talk about it here, however i only want to be the creator of the thread and not really make an effort on the opening post such as giving some meaty background info on Burundi's political atmosphere or presenting own hypotheses, opinions or questions, such as:

"who could be the gunmen?"
"what are the conditions of the Burundi military, can they handle this?"
"possibility of international intervention in African states?"

etc

basically if you dont have anything of substance to say on the opening post, don't create a thread just for others to talk about it.

[PikeStance]

This is exactly right. I have created threads with less than a few sentences, but with some insight into the news story/ article I was presenting.

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

what happened to the forum?

[alhoon]

That's an interesting question

[Iskar]

Moved the above two posts to where they are not off-topic.

As it seems the database was corrupted and GED had to reload his last manual backup, which was from Christmas day. We just travelled back in time by more than two weeks.There's more on it here.

[RubiconDecision]

It's time travel, and we get to "do over" any harshness, any pugnacious and divisive posts. But will we? I doubt it.

Someone anonymously gave me rep and remarked "We actually agree on some things!". Honestly in academia people often agree on the problems and challenges of society, but instead of collaborating where we're able, we argue about the details. We've become so foolishly intransigent that it's yet another immature stalemate.

When debate and discussion becomes mockery, one upmanship, and pointless conflict, then intellectual thought is extinguished.

So is Hope.

"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Acts of the Apostles 7:51

Stephen is talking to the Sanhedrin, but the same sad message is directed to every proud silly Christian, including myself.

25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26“In your anger do not sin”^d : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:25-31

We grieve the Holy Spirit by such disunity and immaturity.
...
Long ago, it was a delight to receive letters, particularly creative long correspondence that had traveled hundreds of miles to reach our hands. And when email began, it was a joy that was extinguished and gave immediacy. No waiting for replies that might take a month...or longer.

But the hope of insightful, carefully crafted diplomatic correspondence was squashed by immediate barbs and cruelty. And now even worse...anonymous cruelty.

Quite a devolution, wouldn't you say?

[Condottiere 40K]

Soooooo, where was I ...

[Iskar]

In light of the fact that due to the countries involved many news sources about recent topics are not in English, I thought we might use this thread to remedy parts of the comprehensibility problem. Our community here is quite diverse regarding languages spoken and in fact we should jointly be able to give comprehensive summaries of most sources ranging from norwegian to pharsi. So if you have questions about a source that you do not understand (and where google translate fails you), you can ask them here and those who know the respective language can give an assessment of it, even when they are not involved in the discussion where the source was brought up.

I myself can help with German and French sources and, well, if you find a Latin news report, then that is probably interesting in itself.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

The day of the union is celebrated today at the Bucharest subway, as well as at the "Henri Coandă" airport where "Hora Unirii" (Union Dance) will be played and sang, say the representatives of Metrorex and the National Company for Airports Bucharest.
Today starting with 11:00 AM the "Henri Coandă" airport will meet all of it's passangers with the Union Dance accompanied by Doiniţa dance group, at the arrival terminal

At the subway station Piaţa Unirii 2, "Cununa Carpaţilor" Folk Anssambly will start a concert at 14:00 AM. The key moment of the show will be the Union Dance where passangers will be invited to join along.

Also, a train that leaves from Bucharest to Iashi at 12:00 will be lead by a locomotive made out of the colours of the romanian flag called "The union train"

http://www.realitatea.md/hora-unirii...are_33377.html

___

And after over 150 years of this "union" that moldovans from Romania are so jolly to celebrate, they still do not realize that they are the poorest region in Romania, due to historical neglect of the romanian authorities, thanks to excessive fiscal and political centralization centered around Bucharest. With absolutely no national investment because of the region's low population. Incidentally this trap of political representation based on population was spotted quite early, by the anti-unionists from 1859, but certainly it does not matter for the greater cause of unity. The rest of the romanian people are going to blame their poverty on the moldovan's for being drunkards granny lovers anyways. And of course in order to distract them from their poverty, romanian politicians and historians decorate moldovans from Romania with such titles like "Romania was created at Iasi" and "Moldovans are the true forgerers of the romanian state" to make them feel special, and quite frankly, brainwashed and ignorant of their own lives.

[Prodromos]

That's certainly an important question. One with no real easy answers. A lot of issues are at play here. I think that the reason the situation is so volatile is because of the factors involved. But I just want to bring a few issues to light that we're overlooking here. I mean we all know that Moldova has a 400,000 population, main export is fish, national language is Maldivian, and most staple foods are imported, so, they have a varied and fascinating culture and economic situation, and I don't think that is being addressed here at all.

[Iskar]

Isn't it heartwarming to see people who otherwise do not hesitate to get at each other's throat jointly smashing the fascist nonsense - including a wonderful opportunity to call a position fascist without that being just a rhetorical manoeuvre to vilify the other side?

[RubiconDecision]

Isn't it heartwarming to see people who otherwise do not hesitate to get at each other's throat jointly smashing the fascist nonsense - including a wonderful opportunity to call a position fascist without that being just a rhetorical manoeuvre to vilify the other side?

Well, we seldom have a person who hides their Fascism so poorly that Google Image tracked it in seconds!

Some who punctuate their posts with "Fascist!" can actually and correctly use "Fascism!" declarations.

I considered this alt might be an evolved GORT test.

[Davius]

I'd like to hear from some Pakistanis on this. The outcry is only from "activists", no riots or outrage from the mainstream. Seriously people, what? This is what happens when you let snake oil clerics run your government. These are our allies....allegedly:

CHILD RIGHTS
Pakistan failure to outlaw child marriage sparks outcry
Activists demand resignation of Islamic council chief after it called attempt to raise legal marriage age "blasphemous".
Faras Ghani | 19 Jan 2016 09:17 GMT | Child rights, Pakistan, Human Rights, Asia

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About 20 percent of children in Pakistan are married before they turn 18 [Reuters]
About 20 percent of children in Pakistan are married before they turn 18 [Reuters]
Activists in Pakistan have demanded the removal of the chief of the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) after a bill to increase the minimum legal age for marriage from 16 to 18 was opposed and termed "blasphemous" by the advisory body.

The National Assembly's Standing Committee on Religious Affairs and Interfaith Harmony rejected the "child marriage restraint" bill last week after the council dubbed it "anti-Islamic".

Child marriage in numbers
Pakistan
Children married by 15: 3%
Children married by 18: 21%
Adolescents currently married (female): 15.7%
Births by age 18: 10.2%

Global
One-third of girls in the developing world are married before the age of 18, and one in nine are married before 15.
If current trends continue, 150 million girls will be married before their 18th birthday over the next decade.
Pregnancy is consistently among the leading causes of death for girls ages 15 to 19 worldwide.
Sources: UNICEF, Girls Not Brides, ICRW
The move to ban under-18 marriages - and increase punishment for those carrying them out - was initiated by Marvi Memon, a member of the National Assembly, who was forced to withdraw it last Thursday following staunch resistance from the CII.

The council advises the legislature whether certain bills are compliant with Islamic law.

According to a UNICEF estimate, 3 percent of girls in Pakistan are married before they turn 15 and 21 percent before age 18.

Those involved in an under-age marriage are punished by one month in prison in addition to a PKR 1,000 fine ($10).

The amendment not only sought to boost the minimum legal age of marriage for girls to 18, but also to impose a two-year prison sentence and increase the fine to PKR 100,000 ($950).

Critics called for the dismissal of the Islamic council chief after the bill was opposed.

"Maulvi Sherani must immediately be removed from his post as CII chairperson and an educated, enlightened, progressive, moderate and real Islamic scholar - who lives in the 21st century, and who does not hate women and girls - must be appointed to replace him," civil society leaders demanded in a statement.

While the council clarified it was only seeking abolishment of punishments, its spokesman reiterated the organisation's earlier stance that a girl could be married as early as nine.

"If the signs of puberty are visible, a boy can be married off at 12 and a girl at nine years of age," spokesman Inamullah told Al Jazeera. "If those elements are not present, then 15 should be the legal age.

"It doesn't mean that a girl should be married off as soon as she turns nine. And it's unfair to blame the CII for this. It's not like we came up with the law and people started getting their daughters married at nine. Parents should do what is best for their children.

"But the impression that the act should be punishable is not correct... From religious teachings, it is quite clear that if puberty is reached as early as nine, the girl can be married off," said Inamullah, who only gave one name.


Poverty, lack of education, and the culture are cited as reasons behind the practice of child marriage in Pakistan.

Marriage - and subsequent pregnancy - at the age of nine increases the chances of a young girl dying 10-fold, according to a medical expert.

"A nine-year-old girl is not physically, emotional or psychologically mature. She is what she is: a young girl," Dr Shershah Syed, founder of the Pakistan National Forum on Women Health, told Al Jazeera.


"Given her frail body structure at that age and pregnancy at that age increases her chances of death 10 times ... she's unable to handle all this. The legal age in Pakistan - 15 - is still better than nine, but we in our field would not recommend a girl getting married before she's at least 18."

The Council of Islamic Ideology is an advisory body and its recommendations should not be binding, Blue Viens, an NGO working for women's rights in Pakistan, told Al Jazeera

"We outrightly reject him [Maulvi Sherani] and his statements against women and girls, as well as the early marriage criteria," programme coordinator Qamar Naseem said.

Hundreds of proposed bills are never sent to the Islamic council and many of its recommendations are not followed by the government, said Naseem.

"Only when it comes to women and children issues, the government forwards to CII because it knows those amendments will not be approved."

I know, I know the source is biased:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...062004700.html



A one liner and a lengthy source quote do not make an OP. Merged hither. ~Iskar

[StarDreamer]

Institutionalized pedophilia, what more is there to say?

[Prodromos]

Yeah I posted this a while ago and all I got was, "A French king had an affair with a teenager 600 years ago, so we have absolutely no right to complain."

Here are a couple stories from Pakistan and home to 200 million Muslims:

A 15-year-old Pakistani boy has cut off his hand as a way of punishing himself for an accidental “blasphemy” he committed. The boy was praised by his parents and gained huge respect from his neighbors for the act, police told AFP.

It turns out the Mohammad Anwar raised his hand by mistake after he misheard a question from an imam, who asked the crowd at a village mosque to give a show of hands of those who had stopped praying.

The boy raised his hand and was immediately accused by the crowd of blasphemy.

After cutting off his hand he put it on a plate and brought it to the cleric, the police chief said.

There is no need for an investigation, the police chief said, as there have been no complaints.

Pakistanis are followers of the Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence, which is the largest in Islam.

Hanafi law views blasphemy as synonymous with apostasy, and therefore, accepts the repentance of apostates. Those who refuse to repent, their punishment is death if the blasphemer is a Muslim man, and if the blasphemer is a woman, she must be imprisoned with coercion (beating) till she repents and returns to Islam.^[22] If a non-Muslim commits blasphemy, his punishment must be a tazir (discretionary, can be death, arrest, caning, etc.).^[23][24]

In related news in the same country, Pakistan's parliament rejected an anti-pedophilia bill on the grounds it was anti-Islamic. The lawmakers wanted to change the punishment for engaging in child marriages from "simple" to "severe."

A bid to ban child marriage in Pakistan utterly failed, after the Council of Islamic Ideology declared the legislation “anti-Islamic” and “blasphemous.”

The bill didn’t even move past the first stage in the legislative process, The Express Tribune reports. It was almost immediately pulled Thursday by Pakistan Muslim League party’s Marvi Menon following condemnation from CII, whose job it is to advise the legislature on whether bills are compliant with Sharia law. In this case, the bill clearly violated Islamic law as tradition holds marriage as acceptable when a girl hits puberty.




After CII’s declaration, a parliamentary committee rejected the legislation solely for religious reasons and Menon subsequently pulled the legislation.

Existing legislation in Pakistan already violates Islamic law. The Child Marriage Restraint (Amendment) Act 2014 places the legal age of marriage at 16 for women, but the recent proposal attempted to move that age up to 18 and also included serious punishment for the common practice of child marriage. That punishment would have included prison for up to two years for anyone caught engaging in child marriage.

CII Chairman Mohammad Khan Sheerani reiterated in 2014 that girls can be married at age nine, so long as puberty is apparent, adding that attempts to revisit the issue are pointless and unnecessary.


“Parliament cannot create legislation that is against the teachings of the Holy Quran or Sunnah,” Sheerani said in 2014, according to The Express Tribune.

CII was created in 1962 with the express purpose of advising parliament on Islamic law.

CII is also known for calling to make DNA evidence inadmissible in rape cases as recently as 2013. What CII wanted instead is to bring back the old practice of bringing in four witnesses to support rape claims.


With increasing immigration, the practice of child marriage has also spread to the West, raising alarm especially in the United Kingdom. According to data from the Home Office’s Forced Marriage Unit, there were 1,485 cases of child marriage in 2012. Another government report also found child marriage is increasing around the world, with the rate expected to climb to 14 million child marriages a year before 2020 hits.


Pakistan has pledged to end child marriage by 2030 as part of a global initiative.

Anti-Pedophilia Bill Rejected In Pakistan As 'Anti-Islamic'

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

• The Hanafi school permits a man or a woman, after puberty, to marry without getting permission of a wali (guardian); the permission is a requirement for adult Muslim women in other Islamic fiqhs such as Maliki, Hanbali, Shafii, Fatimid Shias, Daudi and Bohras.^[40] However, Hanafi school grants a guardian the right to arrange and give away in marriage, a minor girl before puberty, without anyone's consent.^[41][42]

[Davius]

Yeah I posted this a while ago and all I got was, "A French king had an affair with a teenager 600 years ago, so we have absolutely no right to complain."

Yep. Biased moderation rears its' ugly head. Again!

He claimed it was a one-liner. Ohhhh the moderation stories I have.

[mishkin]

@Dr. Legend. Great your way to divide the world: normal or Muslim. Life is easy, right?

[Prodromos]

Is life easy for a six year old girl married off to a middle aged guy?

[PikeStance]

The whole thing is rife with hyperbole hardly worth a discussion of any kind. As a former teacher of religion (and I taught Jewish and Christian scriptures), I can assure you there is plenty of rape, incest, child abuse, etc... in the Bible. I am currently living in a Muslim country and I lived in the Middle east for three years, and Muslims are just as adapt at ignoring the negatives in the Koran as Christians are.