Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[Cope]

Russia positions itself in opposition to US geopolitical objectives. Shocking.

[Sir Adrian]

The Romanian center-right government just collapsed following a vote of no confidence. The country is in a dismal situation, because the coronavirus is wreaking havoc and only one third of the population has been vaccinated. That's a very disappointing percentage and much lower than the average of the European Union. The government has mishandled the crisis, but the main factor is the Orthodox Church (Romania is a deeply religious nation), which has refused to take sides. A few bishops have died, but even Patriarch Daniel is not endorsing the vaccine openly. Such a cowardly neutrality only boosts the skeptics, however, so more Romanians are expected to die in the future. On a slightly less pessimist note, those that the conspiracy theorists blame for the disaster are the Jews, Bill Gates and the Hungarian minority of Transylvania. Local touch I guess.

This is with a capital B. The center-right government collapsed after a wave of abuse and power-tripping but the former PM, it's got absolutely nothing to do with Corona. Yes the number of vaccinations is low because of propaganda coming from the Russian affiliated party (AUR), however the numbers are picking up to the point where there are currently 50k first dose vaccinations per day. We jumped from slightly over 28% to 34% in a couple of weeks.
The church has nothing to do with this whatsoever. The Orthodox Church is forbidden from taking an official position in civil matters that do not affect it directly. Patriarch Daniel and the bishops are NOT ALLOWED to take sides in the vaccination discussion and has let it to the latitude of local priests. Except for the metropolitan of Constanta, who is kind of a nutjob, most bishops and archbishops have privately opined in favor of the vaccine. In many locations, especially in the countryside, priests are the main vehicle for vaccination helping the elderly and infirm to schedule themselves and sometimes even driving them there.

As for people blaming the Hungarians, that's just plain garbage. The main resistance points against the vaccine are "it's just a flu", "the vaccines are untested" and "I don't understand how it works, I may get cancer in the future". There are a few fringe idiots who blame the Illuminati and Bill Gates and 5 chips but they are a distinct if vocal minority, led by a disgraced senator (Sosoaca), but they're no more than you would find in Greece for example.

The Romanian Orthodox Church used to preach very Antisemitic and anti-Freemasonry sermons in the Interwar Period and it was heavily involved in the Holocaust, but I am not sure if this plays any role today, because the ecclesiastical system was deeply reorganised under the early Communist regimes (Ceausescu, on the other hand, was much more tolerant).

This is objectively untrue, except for Ceausescu being more tolerant of the church than other communist leaders.

[Cyclops]

"Russia views Taiwan as part of the People's Republic of China"

I think that's the US position too, and Australia's. According to international law (and we in the West subscribe to the rule of law), the island is part of China, and we have (for better or worse) recognised China as the legitimate government.

Its a useful diplomatic lever to restrain China from violently invading Taiwan, its been a useful "in your face" for decades now. Certainly Beijing would trample people's rights there (however cynical the UK's introduction of democracy in their final moments in Hong Kong the commos have bulldozed it mercilessly). Red China is a single party state with terrible human rights crimes on its hands, and with Winnie's ascension to virtual "Son of Heaven" we have grounds for delaying reunification until they are recovered from their present political sickness.

It will happen eventually I guess, but now is not an auspicious time.

[Abdülmecid I]

This is with a capital B. The center-right government collapsed after a wave of abuse and power-tripping but the former PM, it's got absolutely nothing to do with Corona. Yes the number of vaccinations is low because of propaganda coming from the Russian affiliated party (AUR), however the numbers are picking up to the point where there are currently 50k first dose vaccinations per day. We jumped from slightly over 28% to 34% in a couple of weeks.
The church has nothing to do with this whatsoever. The Orthodox Church is forbidden from taking an official position in civil matters that do not affect it directly. Patriarch Daniel and the bishops are NOT ALLOWED to take sides in the vaccination discussion and has let it to the latitude of local priests. Except for the metropolitan of Constanta, who is kind of a nutjob, most bishops and archbishops have privately opined in favor of the vaccine. In many locations, especially in the countryside, priests are the main vehicle for vaccination helping the elderly and infirm to schedule themselves and sometimes even driving them there.

I didn't say that the government collapsed because of the coronavirus. Its mishandling of the pandemic is part of the crisis Romania currently faces. Anyway, so you mean that Patriarch Daniel is not allowed to say that he got vaccinated? I doubt it. Even if it was the case, his ultimate priority should be the well-being of his flock, so he's definitely a coward. Not that Daniel has refrained from publicly intervening in civil or health matters. He made his opinion about abortion very clear a few years ago and in last October he threatened the politicians who banned pilgrimage (in order to avoid the spread of the virus) with divine punishment. I'm not sure about AUR's ties with Russia, but it's definitely closely associated with the Orthodox Church. Since its conception the party has collaborated with Christian brotherhoods of legionary sympathies (basically the Romanian version of fascism), several clerics have publicly supported it and it gained most of its votes in rural areas, where the influence of the church is the strongest. Șoșoacă has even been compared to Apostle Paul by a Romanian priest. The Romanian Orthodox Church has a pretty obvious problem with radicalism, obscurantism and reactionarism, which has costed the lives of several Romanian citizens. Patriarch Daniel doesn't look very moderate himself, but the crux of the matter is that he apparently doesn't have the courage to deal directly with the issue. Not the attitude I would expect from a religious leader.

[Sir Adrian]

Once again, and misinformation mixed with a hefty dose of bad faith.

The problem is not mismanagement by the government but the people's unwillingness to get vaccinated because of propaganda spread by Russian sponsored media and politicians. In fact, before hitting the willingness cap, we had the best manged campaign in Europe. In march this year we were the third most vaccinated country in the world. As far as the government is concerned they literally did everything they could to get people to take the vaccine, going so far as paying the most popular sitcom producers in the country to make an episode to encourage people to get vaccinated.

The government falling is completely unrelated to everything else going on in the country. The vaccination campaign is run by the military in tandem with the ministry of health, which ministry continues to function normally even if the government fell because the old ministers retain their position as interim until a new government. The only thing the current government cannot do is issue more lock-down restrictions, which it would not have been able to do either way because the constitutional court ruled against such measures last year. The government falling has literally 0 impact on the Corona situation whatsoever. I have no idea why you insist on creating some kind of link between two unrelated events, especially when you've been told once before that there is none.

The Orthodox Church is not allowed by cannon law to get involved in politics or officially interfere in civic matters which do not have a direct bearing on its functioning or the spiritual well-being of the flock. You can thank the eastern roman emperors for that.

I don't expect a self-professed Greek communist to be fully familiar or even open to arguing in good faith about the church, but even so your examples are astoundingly dumb. On the one hand pilgrimages do affect the activity of the church and it was impossible for the patriarch to issue any other kind of message. I hope I don't have to explain why. On the other hand proliferation of sin or soul threatening fads like abortions is one of the instances where the church has to take a stand as it is part of its missionary work. In fact Daniel's message was part of a larger effort of the entire church in support of the World Congress of Families.

By comparison the Corona vaccine is neither part of the missionary activity of the church nor does it have any bearing on its activity as a whole. But I do find it remarkable how you are willing to distort reality just to attack the Orthodox church, which is the only entity still fighting to convince people to get vaccinated in many of the countryside AUR strongholds you mentioned, but you say nothing of the evangelical churches which are actively preaching against the vaccine and threatening any members with exclusion if they get vaccinated.

Speaking of AUR, they're not affiliated with the church. Once again, it is forbidden by canon law for the church or any member to get involved in politics or be affiliated with any political party. Members of AUR taking photos in churches or one of the faces of the party (Tarziu and Simion are not the real leaders of the party, they're only faces) having ties to the church before the party even existed does not mean the party as a whole is affiliated with the church. Moreover you will be hard pressed to find a single politician outside of UDMR and the atheist wing of USR+ who does not take every occasion to make public donations to the church, appear at monasteries or otherwise try to tie his image to the church. They do this the people have greater trust in the church than in politicians.

Since its conception the party has collaborated with Christian brotherhoods of legionary sympathies (basically the Romanian version of fascism)

And which brotherhoods would those be?


PS: Somewhat unrelated but autocephaly does not mean autonomy. There is one and only one Orthodox church. National divisions are strictly administrative. The patriarch is an admin not a mini pope, and that includes the EP. The church is governed by holy and ecumenical synods, and said synods decide everything the church does or does not do publicly.

[Abdülmecid I]

My first article already addressed the part about mismanagement. Almost everyone was permitted to vaccinate from the beginning (which explains the good start, but also the subsequent stagnation) and giving the responsibility to the military was probably a mistake, too. By the way, I literally said in my previous post that the government did not fall, because it mishandled the pandemic. The coronavirus disaster is part of the wider crisis Romania has plunged into.

In regards to the Church, even if I accept your so far unsupported claims about the canon law and the Russian media, this still doesn't absolve the Patriarch for his responsibility. The Church should also be interested in the healthcare of its flock. That's the point behind charity, I believe. Even if it wasn't preventing your followers from dropping like flies with a single announcement is a standard sign of human decency. It could also be theologically justified, similarly to the abortion statement. Last time I checked, letting your fellow human beings die out of selfishness or indifference is a pretty grave sin. On the other hand, given his childish position about the pilgrimage, Daniel is probably guilty of the same sin. That being said, it's not even a question of Patriarch Daniel taking a public position. He's even refusing to reveal whether he has vaccinated or not. Does he also refrain from revealing his breakfast out of fear for his stance being misinterpreted as hostile to fried bacon and eggs?

Finally, concerning AUR, as the cited article explains, it's much more than a few photo ops in churches. Clerics have openly supported it (including the marginalised MP you yourself brought up) and its founder was associated with a Christian brotherhood (Frăția Ortodoxă, it says so in the article, so not sure why you are asking). Not to mention the correlation between the party's percentages and the Orthodox Church's influence. If the Evangelicals have also misbehaved, I will gladly condemn them too, but I don't see how this will decrease the responsibility of the much more powerful and influential Orthodox Church of Romania for the tens of thousands of dead Christian Romanians.

P.S. Autocephaly is an administrative term. The national churches are able to regulate their internal affairs with no or minimal interference from the Patriarch of Constantinople, especially in terms of metropolitan nominations. So, it is synonymous to autonomy. Also, nowadays the relations between the various churches are generally harmonious, but that was not always the case, because the Patriarch fought tooth and nail in order to keep his jurisdiction. The establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate, for example, led to a religious schism, the excommunication of the adherents to the Exarchate and even the defrocking of its leadership.

[irontaino]

Colin Powell has died. Best known for lying to the UN about America's case for invading Iraq, even presenting fabricated evidence of nonexistent WMDs. If there is a hell, he's there with the likes of Donald Rumsfeld and Ronald Reagan.

[Condottiere 40K]

He had a compromised immune system, from cancer treatment.

Since he wanted to be in the room where decisions are made, he had to play ball.

[Cyclops]

He had a compromised immune system, from cancer treatment.

Since he wanted to be in the room where decisions are made, he had to play ball.

Yes its a sad trait that decent people in politics are practically compelled to stain their characters to get in the room where decisions are made. I think sometimes its done as insurance for powerbrokers. "You want to be President? Here's a pig and a video camera, record yourself doing something indictable and the job is yours".

From the little I know of him he was seen as an ambitious but honourable soldier, but when it came to politics he was easy eat for scumbags like Cheney. I recall him flying to Israel for some talks on Palestine, and while he was in the air Bush II made an announcement effectively scotching the whole affair. I don't think it was Bush's idea, just Cheney or Rumsfeld screwing with the newb.

[sumskilz]

He had a compromised immune system, from cancer treatment.

It was worse than that, he had multiple myeloma, which is basically cancer of the immune system.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes its a sad trait that decent people in politics are practically compelled to stain their characters to get in the room where decisions are made. I think sometimes its done as insurance for powerbrokers. "You want to be President? Here's a pig and a video camera, record yourself doing something indictable and the job is yours".

From the little I know of him he was seen as an ambitious but honourable soldier, but when it came to politics he was easy eat for scumbags like Cheney. I recall him flying to Israel for some talks on Palestine, and while he was in the air Bush II made an announcement effectively scotching the whole affair. I don't think it was Bush's idea, just Cheney or Rumsfeld screwing with the newb.

Yeah, no, desire for power isn't an excuse for committing war crimes. Nothing really stopped him from resigning out of principle. Heck, that would have actually been better for his career and legacy, now instead he is just another dead globalist neocon war criminal like Rumsfeld or Bush sr.
No matter how many fake crocodile tears and forced apologetic eulogies corporate media craps out for him, his name will always live in infamy.

[Condottiere 40K]

What are the chances that the Chinese mainland economy implodes after their New Year?

[Heathen Hammer]

I'd say primary factor is Evergrande bubble and US deciding on raising debt ceiling. So it could spark off in either US or China, but the other country would also get it later, as dominoe effect. Neoliberalism got us to this point, so it would make sense to blame neoliberal politicians for a likely global financial meltdown.

[Vanoi]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/m...182611992.html

The spat between Turkey and the West continues on. At this point I don't see Turkey having any good relations with the US, France, Germany ect. until Erdogan is gone. Apparently his approval ratings are pretty low so maybe he won't be around much longer.

[sumskilz]

Erdogan's tough talk is likely an attempt at regaining some popularity. Although, the value of the Turkish lira is now plummeting even further.

[Cope]

Amusing minor development: The Observer (sister paper of the Guardian) has resorted to Twitter polling for part of its C19 coverage.

[Heathen Hammer]

At this point it is safe to say that Turkey is not a trustworthy NATO ally and is likely providing classified information on its fellow NATO members to Russia, China and Iran.

[Nebaki]

At this point it is safe to say that Turkey is not a trustworthy NATO ally and is likely providing classified information on its fellow NATO members to Russia, China and Iran.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Heathen Hammer]

What confuses you so much? Turkish government is increasingly jingoistic and religious fundamentalist, while Kemal's vision of Turkey as European-style secular power died with the attempted military coup from several years ago. It only makes sense to assume that Erdogan is using Turkish membership in NATO for his own ends.

[Nebaki]

while Kemal's vision of Turkey as European-style secular power died with the attempted military coup from several years ago. It only makes sense to assume that Erdogan is using Turkish membership in NATO for his own ends.

1. It seems to that you have no clue about how the founder of Turkish Republic had a Vision about it.
2. Neither you have a knowledge what NATO is and how is that not possible giving your so-called "is likely providing classified information on its fellow NATO members" !
3. NATO is not working how you think and is not that deep connected with his Members. That Grade of Alliance is different.
4. Israel for example is much more a closer Ally to USA then any other NATO Member while not even being in the NATO.
5. Even without Turkeys Membership in NATO there would be an Alliance with USA which would be even more important from the Viewpoint of USA then for comparison with Greece.
6. There are even more liabilities between Turkey and USA which are even deeper then the NATO Membership contributes.
7. NATO is not Pentagon and USA is not just the NATO while of course having more impact on it then his other Members.
8. Politics and governments does not maintain forever and can change at any time.
9. There are various other US Allies around the Globe which are even more extreme then the current Turkish Government.