Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[irontaino]

Israel can fund it's own Iron Dome. They don't need any more free money from us.

[Cope]

The radical left wing of the Democrat Party specifically refused to support their own massive spending bill if it includes funding for Israel’s Iron Dome. So the Democrats caved to the people who apparently want Israel to get hit with rockets from Islamist terror groups. This from the party that likes to call everyone else racist.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/shootin...si-11632261494

This is performative opposition (as usual) to appease the far-left. The funding will be included in a subsequent bipartisan bill.

[sumskilz]

Israel can fund it's own Iron Dome. They don't need any more free money from us.

True, although if they had to fund the Iron Dome entirely by themselves that would require a much more cost-effective approach, meaning responding much more aggressively to the near constant rocket fire from Gaza and ignoring US pressure to deescalate when they are in the midst of crushing Hamas’s capacity. There is little doubt that behind closed doors a promise of replenishment of the Iron Dome was tied to Biden’s request to wrap up the conflict early. Without US funding of the Iron Dome, there would be more Israeli civilian casualties and many more collateral Palestinian civilian casualties, with the existence of the former justifying the necessity of the latter. Ultimately, the resulting pressure would lead the conflict closer to some sort of resolution rather than indefinite status quo, but the nature of that resolution would be quite the opposite of what American progressives say they hope for.

Long term, the data gained from using the Iron Dome in real combat will benefit the US, since the US buy in has given us access to the long-range versions of the system, with the ultimate goal of protecting bases overseas from long-range rocket attacks and the US homeland from ICBMs. Originally designed by Rafael and Israel Aerospace Industries, US funding has brought Raytheon onboard. One of the reasons Israel is less compliant than our other clients in the region is precisely because they know that they don't need us and that they have a fair amount to offer in return.

[PointOfViewGun]

The radical left wing of the Democrat Party specifically refused to support their own massive spending bill if it includes funding for Israel’s Iron Dome. So the Democrats caved to the people who apparently want Israel to get hit with rockets from Islamist terror groups. This from the party that likes to call everyone else racist.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/shootin...si-11632261494

When an argument is that bad doesn't it raise red flags for you? Saying that USA's Democrats don't want to fund Israel's Iron Dome is because they're catering to people who want rockets to fall on Israel is as absurd as it gets.

True, although if they had to fund the Iron Dome entirely by themselves that would require a much more cost-effective approach, meaning responding much more aggressively to the near constant rocket fire from Gaza and ignoring US pressure to deescalate when they are in the midst of crushing Hamas’s capacity. There is little doubt that behind closed doors a promise of replenishment of the Iron Dome was tied to Biden’s request to wrap up the conflict early. Without US funding of the Iron Dome, there would be more Israeli civilian casualties and many more collateral Palestinian civilian casualties, with the existence of the former justifying the necessity of the latter. Ultimately, the resulting pressure would lead the conflict closer to some sort of resolution rather than indefinite status quo, but the nature of that resolution would be quite the opposite of what American progressives say they hope for.

Long term, the data gained from using the Iron Dome in real combat will benefit the US, since the US buy in has given us access to the long-range versions of the system, with the ultimate goal of protecting bases overseas from long-range rocket attacks and the US homeland from ICBMs. Originally designed by Rafael and Israel Aerospace Industries, US funding has brought Raytheon onboard. One of the reasons Israel is less compliant than our other clients in the region is precisely because they know that they don't need us and that they have a fair amount to offer in return.

All of that for just 1 billion dollars?

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Covid Denial kills:

Face mask killing sparks radicalization fears in Germany | News | DW | 21.09.2021

The man shot the boy directly in the head.

Not surprising for me, that more actual german news are reporting that the killer was surfing on far right conspiracy sides...

[Lord Thesaurian]

This is performative opposition (as usual) to appease the far-left. The funding will be included in a subsequent bipartisan bill.

Of course. The question is, why appease the far left’s hatred of the Je- er, I mean, Israel at all? Biden even promised to help Israel restock the Iron Dome, recognizing the latter’s capacity to prevent necessary escalation of military conflict. The article I linked put it this way:

Hamas rockets are meant to kill Israeli civilians, but Iron Dome also saves Palestinian lives. When the rocket attacks are futile and Israeli casualties are prevented, there’s less domestic pressure on Israel’s political leaders to escalate their military response. Iron Dome was one big reason the Hamas rocket offensive in the spring did not provoke a costly Israeli ground invasion. The system’s deployment and improvement, with U.S. funding, also helps develop technology that can be used to defend Americans.

The funding was shot down because a growing number of Democrats oppose anything that would help Israel, even if it promotes peace. Supporters of Israel should take note. If Iron Dome can lose Democratic Party support, then there is nothing pro-Israel that won’t be in jeopardy in Congress.

[Heathen Hammer]

It seems like a lot of American establishment politicians replaced their Israel sugar daddy with China.
Although the only difference is that where as Israel needs to have access to American money and muscle to survive, Chinese are buying up American Democrats simply to use them to wreck US economy and remove it as geopolitical competitor.

[Cyclops]

Covid Denial kills:

Face mask killing sparks radicalization fears in Germany | News | DW | 21.09.2021

The man shot the boy directly in the head.

Not surprising for me, that more actual german news are reporting that the killer was surfing on far right conspiracy sides...

Sad that this happened, sounds like the fella was either mentally ill or just evil, either way he was going to do something horrible and this was his excuse.

There's a lot of evil and crazy people getting onboard with the non-compliance stuff here too. There is definitely a conversation to be had about issues like mandatory vaccination, my own view is you shouldn't force people to do this but I see the case for employers setting standards for their workforce, especially as they face financial and legal obligations around safety.

The anti-vaxxers etc have their case to make and it doesn't help these right wing bigots are dogpiling their reasonable protests and turning them into cop-bashing exercises. I'm hearing more about the type of person involved and it looks like our wannabe Nazis have come out to play, yesterday they rallied at the main war memorial in my town, the Shrine of Remembrance. What absolute disrespect by Hitler worshippers. They try to whip up hate and fear, when we need solidarity. My mrs works in healthcare and they are the people who will be worked and stressed to death if these idiots get their way and spread the virus uncontrolled.

Meanwhile the Murdoch simps moan and throw blame and spread their bulldust. I think when the current government crashes and burns there might be a royal commission into that dog.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

There is definitely a conversation to be had about issues like mandatory vaccination, my own view is you shouldn't force people to do this but I see the case for employers setting standards for their workforce, especially as they face financial and legal obligations around safety.

But with mandatory vaccinations we have extincted Polio. And employers have the duty to protect their workers. If you are weighting the opposing rights, the rights of life and health of many are more important than the rights of the few unreasonable anti vaxxers to not wear masks.

[Cyclops]

But with mandatory vaccinations we have extincted Polio. And employers have the duty to protect their workers. If you are weighting the opposing rights, the rights of life and health of many are more important than the rights of the few unreasonable anti vaxxers to not wear masks.

While I agree with the sentiment the reality is resistance will be fuelled by a blanket approach.

There will be a small minority for whom the vaccine is not safe, and the program can still be effective, so there's negotiating space.

Certainly private employers can set the terms of employment especially with regard to safety, and likewise the government can dictate terms, although it can bleed into coercion.

[Heathen Hammer]

It makes 0 sense to compare actual well-tested polio vaccine with poorly-tested and forcefully pushed "vaccine" which is forced upon population by government on behalf of Big Pharma oligopoly. Hell, even creator of that technology stated that its effectiveness is dubious, for which he was immediately "cancelled". This is not about the virus, this is about the Big Pharma problem, and America and the rest of the West are in desperate need of political force that would reign in the pharmaceutical companies and their lobbies.

[PointOfViewGun]

It makes 0 sense to compare actual well-tested polio vaccine with poorly-tested and forcefully pushed "vaccine" which is forced upon population by government on behalf of Big Pharma oligopoly. Hell, even creator of that technology stated that its effectiveness is dubious, for which he was immediately "cancelled". This is not about the virus, this is about the Big Pharma problem, and America and the rest of the West are in desperate need of political force that would reign in the pharmaceutical companies and their lobbies.

How was polio vaccine tested? I think you'll be in for a surprise.

[Heathen Hammer]

How was polio vaccine tested? I think you'll be in for a surprise.

It took 7 years to implement it. You should probably look it up yourself lol.

[PointOfViewGun]

It took 7 years to implement it. You should probably look it up yourself lol.

You didn't read what you Googled carefully, didn't you?

[Heathen Hammer]

You didn't read what you Googled carefully, didn't you?

You are right that I was wrong about how long it took develop: they started in 1930s and it took decades to develop a functioning one.
Thank you for correcting me and helping prove the point that it is irrational and illogical to compare polio vaccine after all the development, to Big Pharma "vaccine" again China virus.

[PointOfViewGun]

You are right that I was wrong about how long it took develop: they started in 1930s and it took decades to develop a functioning one.
Thank you for correcting me and helping prove the point that it is irrational and illogical to compare polio vaccine after all the development, to Big Pharma "vaccine" again China virus.

Is years it took to develop a vaccine your only criteria to call the polio vaccine "well-tested"?

[Heathen Hammer]

Is years it took to develop a vaccine your only criteria to call the polio vaccine "well-tested"?

They took their time making it safe and only started spreading it after spending decades on working on making it safe and effective. Vaccine development is a slow process, as example of polio vaccine shows, since they had to spend to much time making sure it isn't harmful.

[PointOfViewGun]

They took their time making it safe and only started spreading it after spending decades on working on making it safe and effective. Vaccine development is a slow process, as example of polio vaccine shows, since they had to spend to much time making sure it isn't harmful.

Very vague, especially given that there were different independent polio vaccine efforts in different times. How the most important vaccine got itself tested back in 1954? Give it to 600 thousand kids. 200 thousand dozes turned out to be defective giving polio to 40 thousand kids. The mistake was fixed and vaccination continued despite that failure. You called that a well-tested vaccine while considered COVID19 vaccine as the spawn of Satan. What we learned from vaccines like that of polio is what helped develop the safety procedures that are employed today. The understanding of biology in every field along with safety procedures of today's vaccines is worlds apart from what we had decades ago.

[Heathen Hammer]

Very vague, especially given that there were different independent polio vaccine efforts in different times. How the most important vaccine got itself tested back in 1954? Give it to 600 thousand kids. 200 thousand dozes turned out to be defective giving polio to 40 thousand kids. The mistake was fixed and vaccination continued despite that failure. You called that a well-tested vaccine while considered COVID19 vaccine as the spawn of Satan. What we learned from vaccines like that of polio is what helped develop the safety procedures that are employed today. The understanding of biology in every field along with safety procedures of today's vaccines is worlds apart from what we had decades ago.

Yeah... It took several decades to develop. So... not giving bad doses of poorly-tested product potentially killing or harming 40 thousands of people is a bad thing? Um, what? I don't think your line of reasoning advertises Big Pharma "vaccine" like you think it does.

[Prodromos]

Final count on Iron Dome funding: 420 yes, 9 no, 2 present.

No's: Tlaib (D), Carson (D), Omar (D), Massie (R), Newman (D), Pressley (D), Garcia (D), Grijalva (D), Bush (D)
Present: Hank Johnson (D), Ocasio-Cortez (D)

AOC initially voted no but then changed her vote to present.