Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[Abdülmecid I]

I don't think that South Koreans aiming to imitate the Jewish successes is a very exotic phenomenon. Most Antisemites would probably rejoice in the prospect of their nation replacing Jews in world administration, global conspiracy, media indoctrination etc. Anyway, the survey failed a bit, due to bad terminology and methodology, but the prevalence of so many stereotypes is still worrying. It's good that the Koreans interpret them in a positive manner, expressing admiration and not hatred or jealousy for Jews, but their perceptions should still be labelled as prejudiced generalisations. In the future, depending on the context, it might gradually transform into Antisemitic paranoia and cause serious problems to the Jewish community in Korea.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Its fine, that South Korea has today no antisemitism problem, but it haven't had one in its whole past.^^

So i struggle to see a a real social advancement there, where no social problem was.

Gender inequality on the other hand has a long tradition in South Korea, its ranking as one of the highest in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender...in_South_Korea

And for my taste that inequality is very obvious, if even from high pregnant women is expected to do all the housework.

[Lord Thesaurian]

It would be a mistake to try and fit Korea into a western social mold. It is one of the oldest continuous cultures in the world. As such, the it can be a bit more insular in a way some westerners who pride themselves on a certain set of universalist values would construe as backward or ignorant. However, the latter is also a form of prejudice. A society centered on social conformity and traditional hierarchies certainly has advantages and disadvantages, and this, along with the total devastation of the Korean War, is why you’ll find a significant Korean diaspora all around the world.

At the same time, the fact Korean development had to essentially start from scratch after the war whilst also being a highly centralized society contributed to the country emerging today as a global leader in innovation and one of the most technologically advanced and highly educated countries in the world. So yes, one may begrudge Korean society for pressuring women into a traditional role as mothers and homemakers, but casting stones at a stable social model may become increasingly hollow as western societies are paralyzed and consumed by social ills that come with the constant internal strife of their own. The latter is, after all, something which may appear nonsensical from the other side of the table.

[sumskilz]

I admit that I had to google teleology. I still don't know what you mean when you talk about "one of the internal contradictions in the teleology you appear to subscribe to". Going to this specific case, can you tell me what the problem is that I had the idea that North Korea was a more progressive country? (Yes, such a foul misogyny is not typical of advanced societies). Have you taken for granted that I considered more exotic cultures (being European) more retrograde or what?

You can't really have moral progress without there being a telos. It assumes that there is a forward and backward, closer and further away from the ideal. This is essentially a religious view. To be committed to a moral view is to hold an intolerant position. What is generally described as progressive, is a sort of post-Christian secular morality of "Western" or European origin, which supposedly includes multicultural tolerance while at the same time being intolerant of other cultural values. There are problems with the term "Western" which we've discussed elsewhere, but issues aside, progressive morality comes across to many people who are from non-Western countries as a form of Western chauvinism.

Also, "whitest countries"? Is this how you catalog countries?

I chose the term to demonstrate the parallels between modern progressivism and "white man's burden". Although lately as the former ideology has become more racialist, it's a bit confused, since for some progressive radicals it's now more virtuous to be non-white than it is to adhere to the prescribed values.

I don't think that South Koreans aiming to imitate the Jewish successes is a very exotic phenomenon. Most Antisemites would probably rejoice in the prospect of their nation replacing Jews in world administration, global conspiracy, media indoctrination etc. Anyway, the survey failed a bit, due to bad terminology and methodology, but the prevalence of so many stereotypes is still worrying. It's good that the Koreans interpret them in a positive manner, expressing admiration and not hatred or jealousy for Jews, but their perceptions should still be labelled as prejudiced generalisations. In the future, depending on the context, it might gradually transform into Antisemitic paranoia and cause serious problems to the Jewish community in Korea.

True, but for me, the biggest issue is the awkward bro crushes.

Though no more awkward than the super non-prejudiced Seattleite: "Oh I didn't realize you're Jewish. You know I love Jewish food! Have you ever been to Noah's Bagels?" First of all, there is no Jewish food. What they're thinking of is Ashkenazi food, and nobody loves Ashkenazi food (except for the baked goods), because it's wretched.

[mishkin]

you have my word that if this particular progressive sees misogyny (or racism, etc.) in south korea or mozambique he will condemn it as if it were happening in the "white" city where he lives. (weird talking in third person but nevermind)

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

@Legio: The point is , the south korean society isn't stable anymore:

As a consequence of household inequalities, South Korean women are marrying later and having fewer children.^[45] A 2007 report by Center for Strategic and International Studies notes these trends are "in many ways the worst of both worlds. Korea now has a lower fertility rate than any developed country and one of the lowest rates of female labor-force participation — 60% for women aged 25 to 54 versus 75% in the USA and 76% in the EU."^[45] The percentage of Korean women who say it is “necessary” to have children declined from 90% in 1991 to 58% in 2000.^[45] In 1970, the average age of first marriage for females was 23; by 2005 it was almost 28.^[45] The report shows that traditional Korean family and workplace cultures must change in order to prevent serious economic and societal problems due to extremely low fertility rates.^[45]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender...in_South_Korea

[sumskilz]

you have my word that if this particular progressive sees misogyny in south korea or mozambique he will condemn it as if it were happening in the city where i live.

I didn't think otherwise, but do you really think traditional gender roles in South Korea are due to hatred of women?

[Abdülmecid I]

True, but for me, the biggest issue is the awkward bro crushes.

I'm not very familiar with Ashkenazi cooking tradition, but what frightens me the most is the Sephardic preparation of kitchen utensils. We once invited the local rabbi for a kosher dinner*. The guest thanked us, but also reminded us that kosher is not limited to shopping for appropriately slaughtered lamb. Apparently, all the dinner tools had to be washed with "natural, running water". Due the absence of any mountain springs in close proximity, that meant that we had to put a bunch of spoons, forks, pots and dishes in a supermarket net, which then dived for a few seconds in one of Rhine's rather muddy tributaries. Miraculously enough, in the end nobody died with excruciating stomach pains.

*We became acquainted, because during a regular visit to the old synagogue, from a group of thirty, only me and the rabbi weren't wearing the kippah. It kept falling so often that the congregation concluded that it would be more respectful to just hold it in our hands than keeping discreetly dusting it off every five meters.

[Aexodus]

Though no more awkward than the super non-prejudiced Seattleite: "Oh I didn't realize you're Jewish. You know I love Jewish food! Have you ever been to Noah's Bagels?" First of all, there is no Jewish food. What they're thinking of is Ashkenazi food, and nobody loves Ashkenazi food (except for the baked goods), because it's wretched.

This reminds me of this Jewish cookbook I found in Canada once.



I found it at a re-use centre.

[Lord Thesaurian]

@Legio: The point is , the south korean society isn't stable anymore:

As a consequence of household inequalities, South Korean women are marrying later and having fewer children.^[45] A 2007 report by Center for Strategic and International Studies notes these trends are "in many ways the worst of both worlds. Korea now has a lower fertility rate than any developed country and one of the lowest rates of female labor-force participation — 60% for women aged 25 to 54 versus 75% in the USA and 76% in the EU."^[45] The percentage of Korean women who say it is “necessary” to have children declined from 90% in 1991 to 58% in 2000.^[45] In 1970, the average age of first marriage for females was 23; by 2005 it was almost 28.^[45] The report shows that traditional Korean family and workplace cultures must change in order to prevent serious economic and societal problems due to extremely low fertility rates.^[45]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender...in_South_Korea

That would appear to be a non-sequitur. If low fertility is an indication of social instability, it’s not at all unique to Korea and thus not logical to tie to unique aspects of Korean society. Several European and East Asian countries fall below 1.3 TFR.

[sumskilz]

I'm not very familiar with Ashkenazi cooking tradition, but what frightens me the most is the Sephardic preparation of kitchen utensils. We once invited the local rabbi for a kosher dinner*. The guest thanked us, but also reminded us that kosher is not limited to shopping for appropriately slaughtered lamb. Apparently, all the dinner tools had to be washed with "natural, running water". Due the absence of any mountain springs in close proximity, that meant that we had to put a bunch of spoons, forks, pots and dishes in a supermarket net, which then dived for a few seconds in one of Rhine's rather muddy tributaries. Miraculously enough, in the end nobody died with excruciating stomach pains.

Lol... Most Ashkenazi people are Reform or non-religious and so don't care, but for the ones that do, boiling the utensils is the preferred method, and I think that's the rule for restaurant kosher certification in Israel as well. You can see why running water would have been preferred to still water traditionally, but...

This reminds me of this Jewish cookbook I found in Canada once.



I found it at a re-use centre.

The two names on the cover are Ashkenazi, from what I could see from a quick search, all the recipes listed on the back are Ashkenazi, and yet the illustration on the front is of Sephardi food. It's the old bait and switch.

[mishkin]

I didn't think otherwise, but do you really think traditional gender roles in South Korea are due to hatred of women?

I do not know what the abuse or contempt of women can be based on if it is not for the education / culture in which you were born. Have Koreans historically learned to mistreat women for some exceptional cause, not shared by other cultures?

[sumskilz]

In light of these comments:

I had the idea south korea was a quite advanced society, really don't know why.

Yes, such a foul misogyny is not typical of advanced societies

I do not know what the abuse or contempt of women can be based on if it is not for the education / culture in which you were born.

I gather that you characterize traditional Korean gender roles as abuse which is motivated by a hatred of women. To me, that comes across as bigotry. The fact that you consider other cultures "retrograde" as well, doesn't make it any less so in my view.

I missed this from an edit earlier:

Have you taken for granted that I considered more exotic cultures (being European) more retrograde or what?

No, I noted that you subscribe to an ideology of European (or Western) origin that considers some cultures more advanced than others. That is an ideology that divides (to some extent arbitrability) cultures and cultural traits into progressive and regressive.

I'm fairly sure that Koreans who embrace traditional gender roles do so because they consider them moral. They may have had a pragmatic origin, but as I understand it, they have been moralized by Confucianism. But you characterize them in the worst of terms with contempt based on your own moral perspective. Who is the higher moral authority on how Koreans should behave, you or them?

[mishkin]

On the grounds that I have said that, if the example Morticia has used is significant, Korean society is misogynistic (and not as advanced as I initially thought), do you assume that I am a bigot or some kind of racist? Amazing. Save so much work next time if you're going to end up saying something like that.

I would ask you, among other things, how pragmatism can be a valid justification for abuse, or why don't you call things by their name ("traditional gender roles" when we are talking about misogynya, cool), but I pass.

You telling me what I believe in. Really amazing.

[sumskilz]

On the grounds that I have said that, if the example Morticia has used is significant, Korean society is misogynistic (and not as advanced as I initially thought), do you assume that I am a bigot or some kind of racist? Amazing. Save so much work next time if you're going to end up saying something like that.

I would ask you, among other things, how pragmatism can be a valid justification for abuse, or why don't you call things by their name (although talking about "traditional gender roles" is a actually propper way to call the subjugation of women), but I pass.

After carefully clarifying that I understood your position, I said exactly what I meant, that I consider your stated position an expression of bigotry. Your use of prejudicial language and ignorant assumptions only really got worse in this next post.

[mishkin]

Yes I am very sorry to condemn the misogyny in Korea, now I understand that their misogyny is fully justified, I take it back. I also withdraw my assertion that any misogynistic society does not deserve to be classified as an advanced society. I also regret that I said at first that I believed that Korean society was more advanced. Or that I do not withdraw? I dont know. Sorry. Bye.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

On the grounds that I have said that, if the example Morticia has used is significant, Korean society is misogynistic (and not as advanced as I initially thought), do you assume that I am a bigot or some kind of racist? Amazing. Save so much work next time if you're going to end up saying something like that.

I would ask you, among other things, how pragmatism can be a valid justification for abuse, or why don't you call things by their name ("traditional gender roles" when we are talking about misogynya, cool), but I pass.

You telling me what I believe in. Really amazing.

I see it as misogyna too.

South Korea has been liberalizised by US forces after WW II. It want belong to the democratic western world, so its ok to apply Western standards.

Traditional confuzianism is a weak excuse, if you are already a industrial society of the so called western free world. By the way confuzianism is also teaching to obey authorities, so it is popular in China and other authoritan states.

But i guess american conservatives don't care about democracy and women's rights, as long economy is free, the state is anticommunistic, antirussian and antichinese and accept US hegemonial interests.

[sumskilz]

I see it as misogyna too.

So you believe that Koreans who adhere to traditional gender roles, do so because they hate women?

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Reducing women on lower housekeeper works is clearly contemption of women, because they are weaker or minor in confuzianism.

You don't need to personal hate jews to be antisemetic too.

[Lord Thesaurian]

But i guess american conservatives don't care about democracy and women's rights, as long economy is free, the state is anticommunistic, antirussian and antichinese and accept US hegemonial interests.

Cute but Russia and China are far more repressive and authoritarian with worse human rights and democratic records than than Korea, not to mention militaristic and expansionist.