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Thread: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

  1. #4201
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    You keep claiming that, maybe it's time to back up your assertions with evidence and arguments, and maybe answer some very obvious questions: What drones specifically have the Djihadi's in their arsenal that match the Houthi capabilities? How many Pantsirs would Saudi Arabia have to operate to keep everything safe? How can a 1 million dollar anti air missile be overkill, when the damage caused by the drone is (& was) guaranteed to be much more than that.
    You sure about that? ^^
    Read my source on the Pantsir. It details once again the drones the Pantsir has shot down.

    https://7dnews.com/news/smuggled-tur...assault-drones

    Rebels are using Turkish technology and equipment to make their drones. They are not just simple DIY drones.


    I explained earlier to you how and why that matters. First of all like I already said: It's true that Pantsirs CAN take them out, but it's not 100% guaranteed.
    Secondly, like I already said: Saudi Arabia is very big and has many lucrative targets far away from one another. Pantsir's cannot defend everything. If one were to bring your argument- and evidence-free reasoning to its logical conclusion, S300's and S400's have no reason to exist at all. Yet it's envisioned by it's creator, just like the Israeli Iron Dome, to function as one element out of several.
    S-400s are not 100% guranteed to take out incoming missiles or drones either. If S-400s or S-300s were all thats needed to defend against missiles and drones then why did the Russians develop the Pantsir to specifically guard its S-300s against missile attacks?

    Overkill is not needed when you have weapons developed to address those specific threats.

    It's exactly the missile shown in the picture posted above.
    You said it was a drone earlier.


    I don't say that a Pantsir/Iron dome system wouldn't be useable for the Saudis. I'm saying that given their geography and the geopolitical realities long range interception is the first and most urgent problem they need to fix. Pantsir's are able do a whole range of stuff, including a semi-offensive role, defending troops at the frontline. They can also work as a last line of defense if the other defensive layers have already been penetrated. One does not rely on them for 100% safety, however. Which would be the requirement for your argument to make sense.
    As you have mentioned and I have as well the Russians use the Tor SAM along with the Pantsir and their electronic jamming abilities. They don't solely rely on the Pantsir.

    They de facto have only short range defenses.
    This blog post lays it out rather well:

    You can of course choose to not believe it, in which case here's this NATO fact sheet on Syria:


    Whoops.
    The latest variant of the Patriot actually has a 35km engagement range now.

    Do you realize though the S-400 also has a similar limited range against missiles? Both the Patriot and S-400 were developed in accordance to the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty that both the US and Russia were orginally bound by. Its defunct now, but the S-400's range is still limited to just 40km when dealing with missiles. Thats probably not as long range as you thought it was.

  2. #4202
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Read my source on the Pantsir. It details once again the drones the Pantsir has shot down.

    https://7dnews.com/news/smuggled-tur...assault-drones

    Rebels are using Turkish technology and equipment to make their drones. They are not just simple DIY drones.
    Yeah. I'll repeat myself against: Not even in the same ballpark as the Quds missile/drone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    S-400s are not 100% guranteed to take out incoming missiles or drones either. If S-400s or S-300s were all thats needed to defend against missiles and drones then why did the Russians develop the Pantsir to specifically guard its S-300s against missile attacks?
    I repeat myself again: Pantsir's are designed to do more than that. E.g. provide cover to frontline troops. IF the S-400/S-300 fails, then you can still fall back to a different weapon. With the Pantsir you have no such ability, since the missile is almost there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Overkill is not needed when you have weapons developed to address those specific threats.
    Saudi Arabia doesn't have those weapons though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You said it was a drone earlier.
    They didn't have pilots afaik

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    As you have mentioned and I have as well the Russians use the Tor SAM along with the Pantsir and their electronic jamming abilities. They don't solely rely on the Pantsir.
    Yup. And that's got what to do with Saudi Arabia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Do you realize though the S-400 also has a similar limited range against missiles? Both the Patriot and S-400 were developed in accordance to the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty that both the US and Russia were orginally bound by. Its defunct now, but the S-400's range is still limited to just 40km when dealing with missiles. Thats probably not as long range as you thought it was.
    I do know that 40km compared to 15-20km means twice the range and four times the area covered. Not to mention the fact that the Patriot systems apparently didn't even pick up on the targets, and the S-400 gives a 230km detection range vs 75km for the Pantsir-SM.
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  3. #4203
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Yeah. I'll repeat myself against: Not even in the same ballpark as the Quds missile/drone
    Did i claim it was? I said sophisticated not identicle. Its still a moot point considering the Pantsir is still better suited for the job.

    I repeat myself again: Pantsir's are designed to do more than that. E.g. provide cover to frontline troops. IF the S-400/S-300 fails, then you can still fall back to a different weapon. With the Pantsir you have no such ability, since the missile is almost there.
    First off of one Pantsir fails it doesn't prevent another one from targetting the misdile. Your entire scenario assumes they only have one active Pantsir.

    And as i mentioned the Saudis could use the Tor system to back up theur Pantsir.

    Saudi Arabia doesn't have those weapons though.
    Doesn't mean they can't aqcuire them or a NATO equivalent.

    Yup. And that's got what to do with Saudi Arabia?
    Everything. Can't rely soley on one system no matter who you are.

    I do know that 40km compared to 15-20km means twice the range and four times the area covered. Not to mention the fact that the Patriot systems apparently didn't even pick up on the targets, and the S-400 gives a 230km detection range vs 75km for the Pantsir-SM.
    Detection range means nothing if you can't engage it until 40km. Its am even more moot point considering any SAMs are attached to radar which can detect missiles way farther than any SAM system.

    40km isn't much more than 20km. And the S-400 in tests against missiles had a 70% probability chance to hit missiles. Thats high, but 70% is not high enough for a nation to soley rely on that system for drone and missile threats.
    Last edited by Vanoi; September 15, 2019 at 12:54 PM.

  4. #4204
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Did i claim it was? I said sophisticated not identicle.
    Lol, that's a dramatic reversal given that I kept trying to tell you that Houthi drones and Djihadi drones were different, and you kept contradicting it. So all those previous posts of yours were for nothing?! Thanks for wasting my time.


    Anyway. Mooooving on. Those satellite images from the facilities after the attack are insane. I did not expect them to have that level of surgical precision.
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  5. #4205
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Lol, that's a dramatic reversal given that I kept trying to tell you that Houthi drones and Djihadi drones were different, and you kept contradicting it.
    I said the difference doesn't matter in regards to whats needed to shoot it down.

    You used a picture of a missile and claimed it was a sophisticated drone then compared it to a rebel drone and said the rebels have no drones near as advance as the Houthis. I pointed out that rebel drones use Turkush equipment and technology showing they aren't simple DIY drones.

    Meanwhile your entire point of the Houthis having sophisticated drones seems to be false as your picture wasn't a drone.

    So all those previous posts of yours were for nothing?! Thanks for wasting my time.


    Anyway. Mooooving on. Those satellite images from the facilities after the attack are insane. I did not expect them to have that level of surgical precision.
    I can't help you don't have any arguments against my points. The S-400 is overkill and can only protect 40km at a time for missiles while for the same price as one battery of S-400s you can get 33 Pantsirs to guard your facilities.

  6. #4206
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    In more serious news, NASA and Greece are shaken by the Barbie Doll scandal.



    The chap right of her looks like an aged version of Erdoğan, any idea who he is?

  7. #4207

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The chap right of her looks like an aged version of Erdoğan, any idea who he is?
    Maybe he's Erdogan's real father. Would explain why Erdo is in compensation mode all the time, his father is Greek....

  8. #4208
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    What, no Yanni?

    As for the guy you're wondering about:

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/epp-g...7211423652966/

    Georgios Nikolaou Papanikolaou was a pioneer in cytopathology and early cancer detection, and inventor of the ‘Pap smear’. At a 1928 medical conference in Battle Creek, Michigan, Papanikolaou introduced his low-cost, easily-performed screening test for early detection of cancerous and precancerous cells. However, this potential medical breakthrough was initially met with scepticism and resistance from the scientific community. In 1954 he published another memorable work, the Atlas of Exfoliative Cytology, thus creating the foundation of the modern medical specialty of cytopathology.
    Last edited by Prodromos; September 22, 2019 at 07:21 AM.

  9. #4209
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Thanks to increased community participation POTF 16 is up for voting, POTF 17 is also open for nominations so don’t forget to keep an eye out for any worthy posts to nominate!

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-POTF-16-Vote!
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  10. #4210

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Greek media had for years portrayed and promoted her as the brightest mind Greece has produced in decades.
    Well to be fair, this proposition hasn't entirely been falsified, considering who fooled who.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  11. #4211
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  12. #4212

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Well to be fair, this proposition hasn't entirely been falsified, considering who fooled who.
    She might still have a chance to win a place in the list of "Top Ten Greek BS Artists of All Time"...

  13. #4213
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Is it me or has Ben Shapiro gone full Trumpist lately? It's so obnoxious.

  14. #4214

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Is it me or has Ben Shapiro gone full Trumpist lately? It's so obnoxious.
    Maybe he's already in campaign mode. Honestly, being faced with the choice between Trump and Warren (the way it looks right now), I'd vote for Trump, too. That said, I hope he continues to criticize Trump whenever necessary.

  15. #4215

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Is it me or has Ben Shapiro gone full Trumpist lately? It's so obnoxious.
    No. You've just gone full establishment neocon.

  16. #4216

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Fall in line, Prodromos! Trump needs loyalty right now.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  17. #4217
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Well, I'm convinced. Only a cuck would choose morality and the Constitution over owning the libs.

  18. #4218
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    When Obama is president:



    When Trump is president:



    These grifters are a cancer on the Republican Party, a bigger threat to the future of conservatism than Bernie Sanders could ever dream of being.

    Young Republican Grifters Own Libs, Destroy Conservative Movement

    A political ideology centered around small government, free markets, personal responsibility, and adherence to the Constitution has been hijacked by a populist phenomenon that looks nothing like the doctrine it claims to hold dear.

    At the heart of the new regime are personalities whose characteristics make them perfect sycophants for Trump. They are incurious—zealously so—just like their leader. But it’s not enough, in the arena of politics, to be a lukewarm supporter—to be a public figure who says, “Well, Trump’s less bad than the alternative, so we’ll back him for now.” No, the ones who want prominence, status, and maybe, just maybe if they’re lucky, a presidential retweet, must show unrelenting enthusiasm; they must go all-in. They know that if they play their cards right, if they show unbridled energy in the service of defending the president publicly, it can propel them toward Trump’s orbit.

    This, by the way, is exactly what Trump needed to ensure that his 2016 victory was a takeover rather than an aberration. He needed grifters; he needed the unflinching loyalty of those committed to “owning the libs” above all else; he needed a movement of young Republicans whose devotion to conservative principles was always paper thin. Without these grifters, Trump would have been a blip. With them, it’s unclear whether conservatism can detoxify itself.

    This is why, despite all the levers of power Republicans currently wield, conservatism is actually in ruins. And it is Trump’s young grifters who are helping him ruin it.

  19. #4219

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    These grifters are the biggest gift the Republican Party could've ever asked for. They'll ensure that the Republican Party will exist no matter how abhorrent it becomes.

  20. #4220

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    I disagree, I am generally with Katsumoto in the idea that a strong and coherent Republican party is necessary for a two party system of government to work. Consolidating around Trump has been the equivalent of injecting large amounts of steroids into the GOP bloodstream; it is for aggressive, short-term gains that will likely have long-term negative consequences. The part that worries me is the complete lack of concern for the long-term consequences may indicate the intention of there to not be a long-term.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

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