Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[Aexodus]

I don’t know about Hungary, but East Germany is certainly poorer than West Germany today because it used to be a socialist state. It’s not a stretch to say Communism impacted negatively on the entire USSR.

[Cope]

The original reasons for the relative poverty of Eastern Europe are much older than communism and could even be dated in the late medieval era. For more recent factors, I would focus on the Marshal Plan and the devastation caused by the Barbarossa Operation. It would be interesting to compare the difference in salaries between, let's say, France and Hungary today with those of the 1970s or 1930s, but I doubt the relevant data exists. Any other comparison is, from a scientific and methodological perspective, completely useless for judging the efficiency of Hungarian government's financial policies, from admiral Horthy to the incumbent prime-minister. However, it's safe to assume that Orban's administration, due to its responsibility for the rising corruption, the undermined labour rights and the establishment of a crony-capitalist business environment, has also affected the emigration of Hungarians to the more prosperous and democratic countries of the West.

Scapegoating the People's Republic for the ills of the present is fine and dandy, but the reality is more nuanced than that, as Hungarians themselves attest.

That's cute, but you can't "scapegoat" an institutionalized ideology which dominated Hungarian politics for forty years. Funny that Hungarian emigration to Germany and Austria shot up in 2011, the same year that Germany and Austria began accepting Hungarian migration without question isn't it? This is the GDP per Capita since 1970 of Hungary, France and Germany. It fully supports the arguments that Hungary was impoverished under communist leadership (when it was at least 4 times poorer than Germany and France) and became less so after it joined the European Union.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Love Mountain]

I don’t know about Hungary, but East Germany is certainly poorer than West Germany today because it used to be a socialist state. It’s not a stretch to say Communism impacted negatively on the entire USSR.

No, your claims aren't a stretch. However, that's not really the subject of discussion. Neither Abdul, nor anyone I know, will deny that Communism has resulted in worse outcomes for Eastern Europe. But the increase in Hungarian emigration can't really be blamed simply on its Soviet legacy. What, did a bunch of Hungarians suddenly open a textbook?

That's cute, but you can't "scapegoat" an institutionalized ideology which dominated Hungarian politics for forty years. Funny that Hungarian emigration to Germany and Austria shot up in 2011, the same year that Germany and Austria began accepting Hungarian migration without question isn't it? This is the GDP per Capita since 1970 of Hungary, France and Germany. It fully supports the arguments that Hungary was impoverished under communist leadership (when it was at least 4 times poorer than Germany and France) and became less so after it joined the European Union.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is irrelevant to the argument. Recent factors and leadership are far more relevant to the increase or decrease in Hungarian emigration than its Soviet history which happened 30 years ago. This isn't scapegoating. Rehashing the evils of Communism neither informs, nor solves this phenomena.

[Basil II the B.S]

If the reason for Hungarian (or Polish) migration are Western higher salaries then there isn't really any other explanation. Other than the desperate attempt to prove that people aren't happy in Hungary, despite the fact they overwhelmingly confirm Orban in power at every turn.

[Love Mountain]

If the reason for Hungarian (or Polish) migration are Western higher salaries then there isn't really any other explanation. Other than the desperate attempt to prove that people aren't happy in Hungary, despite the fact they overwhelmingly confirm Orban in power at every turn.

I don't really see proof that more Hungarians are staying because they are so happy with Orban. It'd be one thing if Orban was decreasing inequality and increasing economic growth, but his reign does not seem to constitute anything remarkable in that regard. Though I am uneducated about the country, I'm more than happy to read evidence to the contrary.

[Basil II the B.S]

I don't really see proof that more Hungarians are staying because they are so happy with Orban. It'd be one thing if Orban was decreasing inequality and increasing economic growth, but his reign does not seem to constitute anything remarkable in that regard. Though I am uneducated about the country, I'm more than happy to read evidence to the contrary.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Eh?

This is a somewhat ok article:
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/...the-socialists

I had read a better one but I can't find it right now.

[Love Mountain]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Eh?

This is a somewhat ok article:
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/...the-socialists

I had read a better one but I can't find it right now.

Stop misusing statistics.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Viktor Orban, the self-less servant of the public is incapable of using EU funds in a non-kleptocratic manner.

While Hungary may have to repay some funds to the EU for projects found not to comply with EU rules, observers say there’s plenty left over for Hungary’s favored elite.

“In the past years, it has become clear that there are a few businesspeople close to the government whose companies nearly always win the large public contracts,” said Katalin Erdelyi, an award-winning investigative journalist at the atlatszo.hu website. “The investments are frequently overpriced, costing much more than initial estimates.”... With hundreds of Hungarian media outlets backing the government and Polt considered to be frequently looking the other way, it’s often been up to Atlatszo and other journalists and watchdog groups to dig deep into the alleged corruption cases.

Rejection of the elites indeed.

[Cope]

This is irrelevant to the argument. Recent factors and leadership are far more relevant to the increase or decrease in Hungarian emigration than its Soviet history which happened 30 years ago. This isn't scapegoating. Rehashing the evils of Communism neither informs, nor solves this phenomena.

Do try and pay attention to the discussion.

1. Abdülmecid specifically stated that an average salary comparison between Hungary and France dating back to the 1970's would be of value to the discussion. That's why I included the graphs.

2. Abdülmecid is the one who accused me of "scapegoating" the MSzMP simply for arguing that the depth of Hungary's economic inferiority by comparison to its northern and westerly neighbors can largely be explained by its refusal to fully embrace market economics for 40 odd years after WW2.

3. The most significant "recent" factor in explaining Hungarian emigration is the unfettered access to the German, Austrian (2011) and British (2004) markets that its citizens acquired as a result of the country's membership of the European Union, not Victor Orban. I've mentioned this point on multiple occasions now.

[Basil II the B.S]

Stop misusing statistics.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No. The one you are using is a table of quarterly data. Indeed 1.5% in Q1 etc. If you set 10 years in the TradEcon chart, it simply gives you... the quarterly data for 10 years. The gdp per year is the sum.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-e...ast-hungary_en
And that btw is one reason I absolutely despise this kind of indicators.

Further:
https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/hungary

[Love Mountain]

No. The one you are using is a table of quarterly data. Indeed 1.5% in Q1 etc. If you set 10 years in the TradEcon chart, it simply gives you... the quarterly data for 10 years. The gdp per year is the sum.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-e...ast-hungary_en
And that btw is one reason I absolutely despise this kind of indicators.

You're complaining about the data being more accurate.

Further:
https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/hungary

Which shows the exact same thing. Viktor Orban is no economic genius, and in fact, if you look at GDP growth per capita, the biggest gains were in 2000-2008.

[Basil II the B.S]

So, I'm not sure what your point is. A 3 to 5 yearly GDP growth is strong by European standards.

Granted, this is more or less what other v4 countries get, so Orban might not be an economic genius, but at least he's not a left wing expert that had Eastern Europe lag behind Western Europe for a number of decades.


edit:

Great news everyone!
Reza Aslan, liberal commentator has called for the eradication of Trump supporters, highlighting that ''all of them'' are white nationalists.

What are you going to do when liberals put 60 million people into gulags ''to fight racism''?


https://twitter.com/rezaaslan/status...ump-supporters

[Love Mountain]

So, I'm not sure what your point is. A 3 to 5 yearly GDP growth is strong by European standards.

Granted, this is more or less what other v4 countries get, so Orban might not be an economic genius, but at least he's not a left wing expert that had Eastern Europe lag behind Western Europe for a number of decades.

Orban is not an economic outlier. He's more of the same corruption and kleptocracy plus nationalism.

[Basil II the B.S]

Works fine for Hungary?

[The spartan]

Great news everyone!
Reza Aslan, liberal commentator has called for the eradication of Trump supporters, highlighting that ''all of them'' are white nationalists.

You guys share a very similar rhetorical technique, y'all should be friends! You could have long discussions on how most effectively to use hyperbole.

[Basil II the B.S]

I never really claim all liberals are like that, because I know some are nice people. So, no. Anyway, still think this is not going to end up in war? It might be a modern style of warfare, but it's still going to be one.

[95thrifleman]

I never really claim all liberals are like that, because I know some are nice people. So, no. Anyway, still think this is not going to end up in war? It might be a modern style of warfare, but it's still going to be one.

Your "side" try to start it with like Christchurch and El Paso but it's pretty clear only the lunatics are listening, the ordinary folk don't seem to want a race war. It's Enoch Powell all over again with a bunch of freaks in their mother's basement jerking off over Eurabia theories.

[Basil II the B.S]

Your "side" try to start it with like Christchurch and El Paso but it's pretty clear only the lunatics are listening, the ordinary folk don't seem to want a race war. It's Enoch Powell all over again with a bunch of freaks in their mother's basement jerking off over Eurabia theories.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-he-was-right/

While many British politicians expressed disgust with Powell's speech at the time, his anti-immigration views were far from uncommon. One Gallup poll from 1968 found that 74 percent of the population agreed with his comments.

Two possibilities:
-74% of Brits in 1968 were basement dwellers jerking off to Eurabia theories as you said
or
-your post is retarded

You also left out the Dayon, anti-fascist and anti-racist shooter because when someone on your side does it, he's clearly removed from the records, Orwell style. Just like your side's media were trying to paint him as well as a white nationalist, on the basis that every white male is a white nationalist. Then they went into hiding when it turned out it was one of theirs and they actually interacted with him on Twitter.

1, 2, 3. Your argument has been obliterated.

[95thrifleman]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-he-was-right/


Two possibilities:
-74% of Brits in 1968 were basement dwellers jerking off to Eurabia theories as you said
or
-your post is retarded

You also left out the Dayon, anti-fascist and anti-racist shooter because when someone on your side does it, he's clearly removed from the records, Orwell style. Just like your side's media were trying to paint him as well as a white nationalist, on the basis that every white male is a white nationalist. Then they went into hiding when it turned out it was one of theirs and they actually interacted with him on Twitter.

1, 2, 3. Your argument has been obliterated.

You keep thinking I'm a liberal which always makes me chuckle.

74% of Brits in 1968 have now been proven wrong...

[Basil II the B.S]

Except all of those who died to Muslim terrorists invited by people who with the ideas you promoted. Those probably aren't too happy.

And those thousands of British girls raped by Muslims that then your side covered up because it'd hurt the image of the society they are trying to build. Also not too happy.

And all the victims of stabbings too. Your side is responsible for murders, rapes, and terrorism.

[95thrifleman]

Except all of those who died to Muslim terrorists invited by people who with the ideas you promoted. Those probably aren't too happy.

And those thousands of British girls raped by Muslims that then your side covered up because it'd hurt the image of the society they are trying to build. Also not too happy.

And all the victims of stabbings too. Your side is responsible for murders, rapes, and terrorism.

Funnily enough the UK suffers substantialy less terrorism post-911 than before it. Now dumb Americans realise that supporting the bad guys is a bad thing, the IRA stopped kiling us.

The fact is we'll see the second coming of jesus before your precious little race war.