Thread: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

  1. #2761
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Personally? I oppose violence, but it's certainly not some heinous, unforgivable thing at that level of political discourse. Moreover, left-wing gun ownership is a fairly niche thing, whereas right-wingers adopt firearms rather readily. Every time these two groups clash there is an inherent danger of a violent shootout. That's my main issue, otherwise, if people wanna beat up each other, let them and let the law enforcement figure it out.
    I remember learning about the Nazis in history class, how the SA would beat up and intimidate their political rivals, how they at first tried to gain power by force in the Putsch, then did by vote, how they killed off Strassers left wing faction and the SA in the party during the Long Knives, how non conforming German boys were kicked and punched if they didn’t join the Hitler Youth, how Mussolini’s blackshirts marched on Rome and used similar tactics.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adol..._rise_to_power
    He was aided in part by his willingness to use violence in advancing his political objectives and to recruit party members who were willing to do the same.
    In the mid-1920s, the party engaged in electoral battles in which Hitler participated as a speaker and organizer,[a] as well as in street battles and violence between the Rotfrontkämpferbund and the Nazis' Sturmabteilung (SA).
    On 14 September 1921, Hitler and a substantial number of SA members and other Nazi Party adherents disrupted a meeting at the Löwenbräukeller of the Bavarian League. This federalist organization objected to the centralism of the Weimar Constitution, but accepted its social program. The League was led by Otto Ballerstedt, an engineer whom Hitler regarded as "my most dangerous opponent." One Nazi, Hermann Esser, climbed upon a chair and shouted that the Jews were to blame for the misfortunes of Bavaria, and the Nazis shouted demands that Ballerstedt yield the floor to Hitler.[29] The Nazis beat up Ballerstedt and shoved him off the stage into the audience. Both Hitler and Esser were arrested, and Hitler commented notoriously to the police commissioner, "It's all right. We got what we wanted. Ballerstedt did not speak."[30]Hitler was eventually sentenced to 3 months imprisonment and ended up serving only a little over one month.
    From 1931 to 1933, the Nazis combined terror tactics with conventional campaigning – Hitler criss-crossed the nation by air, while SA troops paraded in the streets, beat up opponents, and broke up their meetings.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
    It was by now well recognized as an appropriate, even necessary, function or organ of the party. The future SA developed by organizing and formalizing the groups of ex-soldiers and beer hall brawlers who were to protect gatherings of the Nazi Party from disruptions from Social Democrats(SPD) and Communists (KPD) and to disrupt meetings of the other political parties.
    The Nazi Party held a large public meeting in the Munich Hofbräuhaus on 4 November 1921, which also attracted many Communists and other enemies of the Nazis. After Hitler had spoken for some time, the meeting erupted into a mêlée in which a small company of SA thrashed the opposition. The Nazis called this event the Saalschlacht ("meeting hall battle"), and it assumed legendary proportions in SA lore with the passage of time.
    See, I thought all of that was part of what made the Nazis well, bad. Indeed there was a public speaking ban put on Hitler after 1925, which was unsuccessful at defeating what is, an idea and likely made people want to hear him even more. More speech not less speech.

    Strasser spoke in Hitlers place at this time.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Strasser
    We National Socialists want the economic revolution involving the nationalization of the economy...We want in place of an exploitative capitalist economic system a real socialism, maintained not by a soulless Jewish-materialist outlook but by the believing, sacrificial, and unselfish old German community sentiment, community purpose and economic feeling. We want the social revolution in order to bring about the national revolution.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...tepower2.shtml
    14 July – A law is passed to make every party illegal apart from the Nazi party.
    I also thought banning political parties by force was a bad thing Sukiyama.

    The Nazis were a violently anti-Marxist party, a reactionary movement against Russian Bolshevism which was particularly popular in the North and East of Germany closest to Russia. However, the Germans didn’t realise they’d replaced one evil withh another. So be careful with associating yourself with antifa, and normalising their methods.

    What I’m saying is, don’t think one form of extremist is distinguishable from another.

    Opinion
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    And let’s be clear: Totalitarian is precisely what they are. Mark Bray, a Dartmouth lecturer who has defended antifa’s violent tactics, recently explained in The Post, “Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists” who believe that physical violence “is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective.” In other words, they are no different from neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazis are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that killed 25 million people last century. Antifa members are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that, according to “The Black Book of Communism,” killed between 85 million and 100 million people last century. Both practice violence and preach hate. They are morally indistinguishable. There is no difference between those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Hitler and Himmler and those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Stalin and Dzerzhinsky.

    The United States defeated two murderous ideologies in the 20th century. So we should all be repulsed by the sight of our fellow Americans carrying the banners of either movement, whether they are waving the red flags of communism or black flags of Nazism. Yet we are not. Communism is not viewed as an evil comparable to Nazism today. As Alex Griswold
    recently pointed out, the New York Times has published no fewer than six opinion pieces this year defending communism, including essays praising Lenin as a conservationist, explaining why Stalinism inspired Americans, and arguing that the Bolsheviks were romantics at heart and that women had better sex under communism. Can one imagine the Times running similar pieces about the Nazis?

    My mother and grandfather fought the Nazis in Poland during World War II, and her family then endured the Stalinist terror that followed, when Nazi occupation was replaced by Soviet domination. So forgive me if I see little moral distinction between the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Both are evil, and their modern adherents need to be condemned — especially when they dare to commit acts of violence in our midst to advance their hateful visions.


    Thiessen is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Oh I see. So



    Totally acceptable. Because "Nan-Violence"
    Yes. 1st amendment.
    Last edited by Aexodus; January 02, 2019 at 06:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  2. #2762

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I remember learning about the Nazis in history class, how the SA would beat up and intimidate their political rivals, how they at first tried to gain power by force in the Putsch, then did by vote, how they killed off Strassers left wing faction and the SA in the party during the Long Knives, how non conforming German boys were kicked and punched if they didn’t join the Hitler Youth, how Mussolini’s blackshirts marched on Rome and used similar tactics.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adol..._rise_to_power





    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung



    See, I thought all of that was part of what made the Nazis well, bad. Indeed there was a public speaking ban put on Hitler after 1925, which was unsuccessful at defeating what is, an idea and likely made people want to hear him even more. More speech not less speech.

    Strasser spoke in Hitlers place at this time.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Strasser


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...tepower2.shtml
    You've once again demonstrated why context is much more important in cases like these than the actual violence. As your links demonstrate, the political violence employed in fascist movements was done for the sole purpose of eliminating political competition until only one political party was left.

    On the other hand, the extremely violent Russian Revolution is nowhere near as reviled, despite the civilian casualties. The Russian Revolution was after all, a popular revolution that sought to dethrone an extremely oppressive authority, despite the fact that the goals of both Fascists and Communists were the same.

    I also thought banning political parties by force was a bad thing Sukiyama.
    Only when it is done by the political establishment. I have no issues with Afd existing in Germany, or an outright Fascist party existing in USA. I'd expect it to be so widely reviled that it wouldn't have any political power anyway.

    I'll note however, that my opposition to such heavy handed tactics, only stems from my desire to see democratic principles be ideologically consistent. I myself do not actually have a high opinion of democracy and in fact, I support more authoritarian and technocratic regimes because I believe they can achieve better results. I am also of the opinion that the main success of Western societies is due to the embrace of free-market capitalism and overwhelming military force which enables it control of the globe. Not because Democracy is inherently the best form of government.

    The Nazis were a violently anti-Marxist party, a reactionary movement against Russian Bolshevism which was particularly popular in the North and East of Germany closest to Russia. However, the Germans didn’t realise they’d replaced one evil withh another. So be careful with associating yourself with antifa, and normalising their methods.

    What I’m saying is, don’t think one form of extremist is distinguishable from another.
    This is similar to the Horseshoe theory with which I vehemently disagree. I think it is a poor model. To use an analogy, this would be akin to saying that Cuba and China are the same thing. When they are clearly extremely different. This isn't about replacing one evil with another. This is about evil and rejection of it. As I repeatedly stated, political violence in and of itself, is simply a tool. While it is preferable to not use it (in my opinion), it is not inherently good or evil. Thus we have to judge Communists and Fascists on the merit of their ideas, their conduct, and the justification of their conduct. When we take a holistic approach to analyzing "both sides", they will certainly not come out the same. One will be worse and one will be better.

  3. #2763

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    The antifa have assaulted not just "alt-right" fascists, but conservatives, liberals, elderly veteran in a wheelchair, BLM members, marines, random people, police, reporters, and of course WTO and G20 etc meetings, Bernie supporting democrat et.al.. To the antifa these are all "fascist".
    And:
    "Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,”"

    https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...nce-fbi-242235
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; January 03, 2019 at 08:31 AM. Reason: Insults deleted.

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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    I myself do not actually have a high opinion of democracy and in fact, I support more authoritarian and technocratic regimes because I believe they can achieve better results.
    So you don’t believe in Democracy and want to use violence against political enemies. You’re no better than them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

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    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    I think there is a tendency on the right to exaggerate the danger of Antifa, almost making them seem like a disciplined political force set on overthrowing the US government. In my view, they are simply political hooligans, many of them quite immature and delusional. It's a pretty disorganized organization, with no real ideological center or means to discipline members. Thank God that this is the case. Historically, the left has always undermined itself via factionalism. Especially when they are close to taking power, they split into factions. The same would happen with something like Antifa if it ever grew into an actual social force. The Bolsheviki under Lenin were so successful precisely because Lenin developed a new type of party, one in which any sort of factionalism was intolerable. Democratic centralism, as it was called, was a powerful tool for the Communists, one which resulted in a lot of bloodshed. It was the foundation of the Communist apparat.

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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    A lot assumptions are being made.

    -Antifa is reacting to Fascist violence

    As of yet there has been no concerted Right-wing violence. Other than a few small groups like the Atomwaffen which are recognized as a terrorist group, the Right-wing has no equivalent group to Antifa. Almost every case actually has Antifa attacking first or carrying out violence against people who are not violent or people who are not even Fascists. In a lot of cases they not only attack people but also cause destruction to public and private property.

    -Antifa needs to do something about Fascists

    Actually it doesn't, the police are the ones who should handle people who are carrying out crimes or violence. Every time the argument comes up some analogy to the 1930's is mentioned, or some other example from the KKK decades ago. But in the current circumstances and events that doesn't even make sense.
    Given the actions of Antifa and not-Antifa, every time they take action of their own accord they actually turn people against them. It got so bad in 2017 and 2018 that even other Left-wing publications were reporting on them negatively. Antifa is actually its own worst enemy and every time they do this they fail in all of their goals.

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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    I think there is a tendency on the right to exaggerate the danger of Antifa, almost making them seem like a disciplined political force set on overthrowing the US government. In my view, they are simply political hooligans, many of them quite immature and delusional. It's a pretty disorganized organization, with no real ideological center or means to discipline members. Thank God that this is the case. Historically, the left has always undermined itself via factionalism. Especially when they are close to taking power, they split into factions. The same would happen with something like Antifa if it ever grew into an actual social force. The Bolsheviki under Lenin were so successful precisely because Lenin developed a new type of party, one in which any sort of factionalism was intolerable. Democratic centralism, as it was called, was a powerful tool for the Communists, one which resulted in a lot of bloodshed. It was the foundation of the Communist apparat.
    Certainly I don't think that Antifa would overthrow the government. They are dangerous as an extremely violent group which at least has better organization and coordination than the average protest. In so far as actually accomplishing things they are fairly inept... as we saw in Charlottesville 2 in which they were tricked into going as counter-protesters for a UTR protest which never materialized, and then ended up trashing that town all on their own.

    Antifa can barely get off the ground as a true political movement. Due to their anarchist stance they frequently clash with Maoists, Social Democrats who are seen as being Liberal leaning and other less radical or "classical" Communists. The irony is that at least in the USA, most of these Antifa groups are funded and supported politically by Liberals and the Democratic establishment.

    I would argue that the question of power is generally true. The only reason the Republican party dominates Right-wing politics in the USA is due to their deeply embedded institutional control and the two party system. In European countries where there is no such control a single party usually gets brushed aside without a coalition, such as in France or Germany.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    If there is a fascist demonstration in my city, I have the right to practice as an anti-fascist and to attend it and express my displeasure for its proclamations. Here, in the underdeveloped Spain, and in the United States, first champion of freedom of expression.

    Aexodus, do you maintain your claim that antifas are communists or what?

    Bonus

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by mishkin; January 03, 2019 at 02:14 AM.

  9. #2769

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Reminder that Democrats beg for this guy's support every 4 years.





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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Today was glorious. Pence had to swear in not only a female Muslim congresswoman, but also an openly bisexual, atheist, female social worker Senator.

    I'm sure "mother" had to coddle and dry his tears on this night from having to associate with such people

    ------------------------------

    Also...did anyone else see the utterly pathetic attempt by the right/Qanon idiots by posting a video of Ocasio-Cortez from college doing a dance video?

    Like...she has some issues...but if you're scraping that far into the barrel far you are clearly desperate.
    Last edited by TheDarkKnight; January 04, 2019 at 12:59 PM. Reason: I english good
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    The attacks against Alexandria Ocasia are really immature. The only problem I have with her is that she is dumb and has no idea what she is doing. She hasn't done anything to be warranted a threat. As much as I dislike Trudeau, attacks against Ocasio are generally as dumb as the Trudeau elbowgate nonsense.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; January 04, 2019 at 01:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    I'm happy about the newfound diversity in Congress. However, I'm not happy about it becoming a political weapon. A women can run a country just as well as a man; Margaret Thatcher has shown us as much. This is nothing new.

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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    Today was glorious. Pence had to swear in ... an openly bisexual, atheist, female social worker Senator.
    He still made her say "so help me God" :)

    Here is the full religious makeup of the 116th Congress. Only 0.2% of Congresspeople are [openly) unaffiliated with a religion.



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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Jews over-represented 3-1, you seeing this regressive left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    I'm happy about the newfound diversity in Congress. However, I'm not happy about it becoming a political weapon. A women can run a country just as well as a man; Margaret Thatcher has shown us as much. This is nothing new.
    I agree, the problem is gender quotas, and discrimatory action. You have Labour and the SNP using female-only electoral shortlists, and Germany enforcing gender quotas in boardrooms. Not brilliant. It belittles minorities’ ability and personal agency. The sex discrimination act passed by the UK parliament, which excepted them from discrimination laws and allowed them to discriminate on basis of gender needs to be repealed. The all female shortlists used by the labour party would have been illegal under the sex discrimination act 1975.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    https://labourlist.org/2017/09/nearl...en-shortlists/
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Candidates for nearly 50 of Labour’s top 76 target seats will be picked from all-women shortlists, the party’s ruling body has said.
    [/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    Alice Perry, a member of the national executive committee,
    [/COLOR]confirmed that 46 candidates for the key marginals will be female [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]as Jeremy Corbyn aims to deliver on his aim of a gender balance among Labour’s MPs.[/COLOR]
    In socialism, inequity, and difference are not tolerable.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...yrood-election
    The vote, which saw two amendments against the motion defeated, has empowered the NEC to:

    -introduce an all-women shortlist for a Holyrood seat where the sitting MP stands down

    -ensure that any open shortlist for a constituency seat has at least one women candidate

    -introduce “balanced lists” on the regional list, where the list has to have an equal number of male and female candidates.

    http://fortune.com/2016/03/11/german...d-quota-women/
    The law, which passed last year, requires the top 100 or so publicly traded companies to hit the 30% figure figure as of January 1, 2016. The quota applies specifically to supervisory boards, which are made up of outside directors elected by shareholders and workers, who appoint management and approve major business decisions. They are separate from a management board that runs day to day operations.

    Quota laws in many other European nations have teeth. In countries like Norway and France, for example, companies face fines and other tough sanctions for not complying. In Germany, by contrast, companies that can’t find enough women to fill board seats have to keep them empty until they do. The country’s midsized companies, which are the real backbone of the German economy, have until next year to set their own quotas.

    The Böckler Foundation analysis shows that public shaming is having some impact on German companies. “No company wants to be trotted out as a negative example,” says Marion Weckes, the study’s author. Even just the threat of quotas spurs companies to start thinking about promoting women.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-2260821.html
    The words brought me crashing to earth. I started to question how many of my other successes were real. I thought about other jobs I had, where I believed that I had been the best candidate and where the significance of my ethnicity hadn't occurred to me. I began to question my ability.

    I was raised to understand that the world did not owe me a living and I have prided myself on being someone who never accepts something for nothing. But my confidence was fundamentally shaken on that day, the day I learnt my CV was meaningless and I was simply fulfilling a quota.

    This week, on 6 April, "positive action" comes into play, making it legal for employers to select from two candidates of equal merit – whichever has so-called "protected characteristics": a black person over a white person, a gay person over a straight person or a man over a woman – or vice versa, whichever is in the minority. The idea is that employers can fulfil government quotas without positively discriminating and breaking the law.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_...ates)_Act_2002
    The Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002(c.2) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. The purpose of the Act was to exempt the selection of candidates in parliamentary elections from the provisions in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Sex Discrimination (Northern Ireland) Order 1976that outlaw sexual discrimination. The purposes of the Act allow political parties to select candidates based on gender in an effort to increase representation of women in British politics....

    ...The Act was originally scheduled to run until the end of 2015. A statutory order to extend the deadline may be made if a draft has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament. On 6 March 2008, Minister for Women Harriet Harman announced that the exemption would be extended until 2030 under the Equality Act 2010.[2][3]
    The Labour Party has used the law to operate all-women shortlists, which were previously illegal under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.
    Last edited by Aexodus; January 04, 2019 at 08:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

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    TheDarkKnight's Avatar Compliance will be rewarded
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    The only problem I have with her is that she is dumb and has no idea what she is doing.
    All things that also describe the POTUS very well. Difference is...AOC isn't in charge of the nukes.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Legend the "openly" part was more about her being bisexual. But it's interesting to see the religious breakdown anyway.

    I personally don't care at all what faith someone ascribes to or who they share their bed with when it comes to politics. I DO think that faith and religion needs to be eliminated from politics and public life in general because of its ridiculous influence and the fact that it is clearly holding back certain aspects of the advancement of society. But it won't...unfortunately. People would rather read their (very contradictory) Bible than read anything else.
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Jews over-represented 3-1, you seeing this regressive left?



    I agree, the problem is gender quotas, and discrimatory action. You have Labour and the SNP using female-only electoral shortlists, and Germany enforcing gender quotas in boardrooms. Not brilliant. It belittles minorities’ ability and personal agency. The sex discrimination act passed by the UK parliament, which excepted them from discrimination laws and allowed them to discriminate on basis of gender needs to be repealed. The all female shortlists used by the labour party would have been illegal under the sex discrimination act 1975.

    Typical conservative propaganda, which are talking the best should get the job, while in reality not the best candidate got the job, but instead the one with the best connections in the upperclass of public sector and privat economy and with exams from expensive private schools, buyed by Daddy's money.

    In reality shall the "feminism is male discrimination" talk only distract from the fact, that the little land lord sons are not the best qualified for the upper jobs, but only getting them because of the best "family" network.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; January 04, 2019 at 12:50 PM.
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  17. #2777

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post

    Also...did anyone else see the utterly pathetic attempt by the right/Qanon idiots by posting a video of Ocasio-Cortez from college doing a dance video?

    Like...she has some issues...but if you're scraping that into the barrel far you are clearing desperate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    The attacks against Alexandria Ocasia are really immature. The only problem I have with her is that she is dumb and has no idea what she is doing. She hasn't done anything to be warranted a threat.
    She's about as ill-educated and inexperienced as any first-time congressperson. The thing is...they're attacking her over social media. She grew up in social media. This is her medium. She doesn't need to hire someone to tell her how to respond. I mean...hell look at that. "We'll mock her for dancing in college!" Her response: "Pfft...I'll dance more as I do my job. Watch me!" I mean really? This is social media done by a 25 year old. She'll stick a figurative shiv in their backs with social media. This ain't exactly a congressional floor speech. That's where you'll find her tripping up. They need to stfu and let her trip over her own two feet in the parts of the job she hasn't learned yet or don't have a natural aptitude for.
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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Typical conservative propaganda, which are talking the best should get the job, while in reality not the best candidate got the job, but instead the one with the best connections in the upperclass of public sector and privat economy and with exams from expensive private schools, buyed by Daddy's money.
    that the little land lord sons are not the best qualified for the upper jobs, but only getting them because of the best "family" network.
    Well, literally none of this happens to describe me.

    Do you know what I mean by my words better than I do myself?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  19. #2779
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Hit dog barks. I'm only exposing the "best gets the job" myth especially in a Class society like UK.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  20. #2780
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Is a meritocracy not something to strive for?
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

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