Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[swabian]

Voting for Trump was an understandable response. This man is not a source of fascism and collapse, though. He's also unbaerable and unworthy as a president of the United States. His ship has sunk and we will never again be embarassed by his foolishness and primitivity. Of course he will try again, he has invested and lost too much. The US population has understood that this clown is unvotable as a representative of their interests. It's over.

[mishkin]

What I am opposing is the assertion that there are people who are guilty at birth.

you are confusing being aware of something and trying not to be a part of it with blaming yourself. Nobody has to feel guilty for, for example, being a heterosexual white man, we are only asked not to participate in the machismo, racism and phobias that prevail in our society.

Of course I am not asking you for an essay about why it offends you so much that some people want to fight or not be part of racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination and abuse, but I see that you have many problems in forming an articulate response. You should be able to answer why you are offended by "the woke movement" in a couple of coherent paragraphs without alluding to vagueness (you have spoken of the metoo movement?) or anecdotes carried out by more or less relevant individual people.

[swabian]

Nobody was feeling guilty in the first place. It was only your attempt at gaslighting.

[mishkin]

If we can all agree that it's an exaggeration to talk about feeling guilty just for being white or straight or whatever, great.

[paleologos]

you are confusing being aware of something and trying not to be a part of it with blaming yourself.

I don't blame myself for anything but except the aspects of my life that could be better.
I am aware of injustices of the past.
I am also aware that affirmative action is being done in favor of women and colored people(in the USA) when there's plenty of suffering and disadvantage that is color blind.
In the USA for, example, white males and males in general are doing worse then females in academics.
Where is the affirmative action for boys?
When anyone says this they are accused of being champions of the "patriarchy".

...we are only asked not to participate in the machismo, racism and phobias that prevail in our society.

I participate in no such things and I have not witnessed them.
Besides, who defines "machismo, racism and phobias"?
Who decides how broad the definitions will be?
I for one, did not concede this authority to anyone.
And it seems that it is the "wokists" who are trying to broaden the definitions of what is "bad".

...we are only asked not to participate in the machismo, racism and phobias that prevail in our society.

"Prevail in our society"?
This is how your side lies.
Just because such lies are tucked in otherwise polite language, does not make them any less despicable.

I see that you have many problems in forming an articulate response.

This is baiting.

You should be able to answer why you are offended by "the woke movement" in a couple of coherent paragraphs...

How about just one?

The people who speak about "privileged" and "unprivileged" groups also speak about the supremacy of "lived experience" over factual reality.
Yet, a lot of the people who have been accused of some form of privilege would categorically say that this is not their "lived experience".

But they are told that their "lived experience" is to be disregarded because they are members of a group that had privilege forever.
That is regardless of the fact that only a very small minority of people in the group of white-Anglo-protestand-cis-normative-males had any privilege.
And only some of the time it was unearned and unlinked to responsibilities.

In other words, all white-Anglo-protestand-cis-normative-males today are guilty by association.
Guilty of all the suffering of the "disadvantaged" people that lived and died before the accused of today were even born.
Which makes the association that incriminates them an accident of birth.

And on top of that the wokists assert that the "victimized" should not have to provide evidence for their claims because that would forced them to "relive" their victimization.
So, for all intends and purposes, the wokists demand that we accept as evidence for the accusation the accusation itself.

This is most certainly most illiberal.

So in a nutshell, wokists assert that there are people who are guilty at birth because of gender and/or color of skin.
I am opposing this assertion because it is grossly racist and sexist.

...without alluding to vagueness (you have spoken of the metoo movement?)

And this ladies and gentlemen is the proof that mishkin did not read my post.
There is no mention of the "metoo" in my post.
And by the way, what part of my post was "vague".
I think that vagueness is an attribute of your posts.

or anecdotes carried out by more or less relevant individual people.

And this ladies and gentlemen is the SECOND proof that mishkin did not read my post.

Nobody was feeling guilty in the first place. It was only your attempt at gaslighting.

Exactly!

If we can all agree that it's an exaggeration to talk about feeling guilty just for being white or straight or whatever, great.

Gaslighting again!
People are demanded to feel guilty about such things!

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

An early Christmas gift for male victims of discrimination by purple haired wokist females in universities:

Afghanistan: Taliban bans women from universities – DW – 12/20/2022

[Prodromos]

Woke , failure to assume responsibility for anything and statements like "basket of deplorables" are what brought Trump into power, and it's what will bring him into power again if the lesson is not learned.

Yeah right

[Sir Adrian]

Zelenski just rescinded the right of minority children to be educated in their native language by passing a nationalities law that stipulates no funding whatsoever. The new also cuts funding for cultural and intellectual pursuits for minorities, removes the right to use the native language in administration, removes any funding for national minority newspapers and magazines and a whole lot of other things that are a given in most other European countries.

I've said it many times. Ukraine is much worse than Russia, the only difference is that Ukraine is impotent to act externally (unlike Russia).

[PointOfViewGun]

Zelenski just rescinded the right of minority children to be educated in their native language by passing a nationalities law that stipulates no funding whatsoever. The new also cuts funding for cultural and intellectual pursuits for minorities, removes the right to use the native language in administration, removes any funding for national minority newspapers and magazines and a whole lot of other things that are a given in most other European countries.

I've said it many times. Ukraine is much worse than Russia, the only difference is that Ukraine is impotent to act externally (unlike Russia).

What's the name of the law?

[Cyclops]

Is this the "Ukraine bans Christianity" story in a different coat?

[Sir Adrian]

No, this one's real sadly. Ukraine has an atrocious track record when it comes to national minorities. Last year things escalated so far that the supposedly Orthodox ukrainians were burning romanian orthodox churches for not being ukrainian. This law comes as an "improvement" to law 960/2019 which was condemned by the Venice Committee as openly discriminatory

What's the name of the law?

Law 8224/2022. You may also find it as "On National Minorities in Ukraine". Anyway, Hungarian human rights foundations have launched protests and the Romanian foreign affairs ministry has launched an official condemnation of Ukraine. This hits especially hard considering Romania is paying out of its own pocket so that Ukrainian refugee children can study in Ukrainian and Zelenski personally promised that minorities will be consulted before the bill is sent to the Rada.

[PointOfViewGun]

Law 8224/2022. You may also find it as "On National Minorities in Ukraine". Anyway, Hungarian human rights foundations have launched protests and the Romanian foreign affairs ministry has launched an official condemnation of Ukraine. This hits especially hard considering Romania is paying out of its own pocket so that Ukrainian refugee children can study in Ukrainian and Zelenski personally promised that minorities will be consulted before the bill is sent to the Rada.

No such document seems to exist as they haven't even reached 8224 number by far in 2022. The latest bill containing that title seems to be from 1992 as well. You might want to actually check the parliaments website for this.

[Sir Adrian]

No idea why you feel the need to lie about this. Literally the first search result. That draft was voted into law last week. And here is the text of the romanian protest. Hungary and Poland are also appalled by the new law.

[Cyclops]

Looks exactly like the "Zelensky bans Christianity" furphy a few weeks ago.

[PointOfViewGun]

No idea why you feel the need to lie about this. Literally the first search result. That draft was voted into law last week. And here is the text of the romanian protest. Hungary and Poland are also appalled by the new law.

No lying on my part. You're not showing us the legislation itself. Not even the draft text. You have to find it in the legislation section of the Ukrainian parliament website.

[paleologos]

Maybe it is not a law in the books yet, but a draft of a law to be discussed.
Usually the word daft is used for proposed laws on which the parliament will discuss, proposed modifications and then vote to approve or not.

It wouldn't be the first time some media outlet is trying to sensationalize their audience.

[Sir Adrian]

It was voted in the Rada last week. It passed. It may not have been adopted yet but it passed.

[PointOfViewGun]

Maybe it is not a law in the books yet, but a draft of a law to be discussed.
Usually the word daft is used for proposed laws on which the parliament will discuss, proposed modifications and then vote to approve or not.

It wouldn't be the first time some media outlet is trying to sensationalize their audience.

The directory is up to date.

It was voted in the Rada last week. It passed. It may not have been adopted yet but it passed.

Doesn't matter. It would be filed in the database I linked you to. You should be able to link to it.

[Sir Adrian]

I still don't understand the need to lie about something so easily verifiable . There's links to the actual text of the law in there. Anyway I grow tired of the constant sealioning and bad faith arguments, so toodles.

[paleologos]

Guys, I cannot read, understand or speak Ukrainian, so the links you provide are not useful to me.

From what I gather a draft law is not a law yet.
What am I missing?

Link1

Link2