Thread: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

  1. #3801
    Miles
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Comments like this are so common now from Trump no one bats an eye. I don't agree with any of those four ideology and polucy wise but i wouldn't tell them to go back to their countries.
    Difference is now he said it about 4 presidential candidates! That's like questioning zero-point-eight presidential candidates' country of origin 12 years ago, if you adjust for inflation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Oh so they talked about it in England so it must be the most spoke about story these last few days. Except its not. Its delusional to really overblow the reaction to Trumps comments. But again continue to misinterpret my point. Its been a goid couple posts now your arguing against a point i never made.
    I have a conspiracy theory that, when the world is not looking, everyone in England stops talking about Brexit and start talking incessantly about the Falkland Islands dispute. I base this on the premises that I once read a news-paper marketed towards British expats (at the beginning of this year, I forget the paper's name (Something Express... I'll pick it up in the morning to check its name)), and on page 2 there was an article about how Argentina will use Brexit as their excuse to take over the Falkland Islands.

    Once England leaves Europe there'll be nothing stopping the Argent Empire from retaking the Falklands.

  2. #3802
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Comments like this are so common now from Trump no one bats an eye. I don't agree with any of those four ideology and polucy wise but i wouldn't tell them to go back to their countries.
    Did you know that Trump changed the rules on asylum recently? No? Probably because people were paying all their attention to his race baiting tweet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I wont lie, this is the last place I expected Lucifer to reveal his true form. But I can't say I'm not pleased.

  3. #3803

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Did you know that Trump changed the rules on asylum recently? No? Probably because people were paying all their attention to his race baiting tweet.
    No Aexodus: no one "bats an eye" at "comments like this"; no one is outraged; only a few outlets bothered writing articles about his latest remarks; it definitely wasn't headline news.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Oops.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; July 16, 2019 at 10:03 PM.

  4. #3804

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    You are calling detention centers for illegal aliens concentration camps after repping me and reposting the Encyclopedia Brittanica article I posted...
    Interesting...
    Ok. I'm tired of people throwing WW2 Nazi BS my way so I'm going to put this to rest.

    Point 1. The history of concentration camps goes around the world, visiting all six relevant continents and nearly every country. They've been in existence continuously somewhere on the globe for more than one hundred years. Barracks and barbed wire are the most typical symbols, but they are most defined by their detainees than by a physical feature. They are symbolically defined by Purgatory, Hades, and Hell, moving from the realms of internment, to the labor camps of the Gulag and up to the Nazi Death Factories. A concentration camp exists wherever a government holds groups of civilians outside normal legal process, sometimes to segregate people considered foreigners or outsiders, sometimes to punish. If prisons are meant for suspects convicted of crimes after a trial, a concentration camp holds those who had no real trial at all.

    Concentration camps house civilians rather than combatants, though at many points from WW1 to Gitmo, camps have not made an effort to distinguish between the two. Detainees are held because of racial, cultural, religious, or political identity -- not for any prosecutable offense. Noted: some states have remedied this by making legal existence impossible. Not to say that all detainees are innocent of crimes. They have accounted for the fact that the innocent may be swept up and investigations will happen.

    Concentration camps are established by state policy. Period. This can not be stressed more. Concentration camps are established by state policy. Typically during a conflict or civil war. Representing the excercise of state power against citizen, subjects, or others for whom the government holds responsibility, the Government establishes detention. Unlike prison, camps often detain prisoners without a scheduled date of release, or if a date exists, it is arbitrarily pushed back.

    Now. The concentration camp experience rarely begins and ends inside the camp. It is a process. It usually starts with arrest and interrogation, goes with journey to camp, and persists in exile and threat of punishment even after release.

    "Whoever was tortured, stays tortured." - Jean Amery

    They typically include communal living among tens, hundreds, thousands of people. Though in the last decades of the twentieth century, detainees have also been held in small groups in attempt to keep them hidden. Some sites, convicted prisoners end up a measurable percentage of the population. Elsewhere, refugee camps built to deal with massive immigration(often due to war) simetimes transform into hybrid refugee-concentration camps.

    On refugees. For more than a century, countries have established refugee camps to coordinate food and shelter during crises. But where the camps exist to isolate refugees and regulate them to dangerous terrain serve as de-facto detention areas to discourage border crossing, or become purgatory for detainees unable to return home. They take on characteristics of concentration camps.

    Let's get one thing straight. Differences between the earliest camp systems and the later Nazi camp model have led historians to ask whether such varied setting even belong together under "concentration camps". But when you examine the entire range of camps it reveals that while they differences in tactics and strategy as well as outrageous difference in outcome due to limits in industry and culture and governments imposed, most systems arose from similar political crises and paralleled early goals.

    Point 2. Unlike war and murder, concentration camps do not stretch back across millennia. Criminal statutes in the ancient world more often called for exile, execution, or physical punishment. Detention, regardless, requires feeding and sheltering prisoners, obligations that offer partial explanation for the late debut of jails and camps. Some later camp phenomena made its way up, like permanent tattoos to ID prisoners in the Roman Empire, authorities mostly resisted sentencing to such. Mass incarceration arrived in the era of factories and public schools, when having an assigned role in a large hierarchical group with a supervisor to enforce order became daily life.

    The Romans condemned subjects to hard labor on infrastructure projects, or in mines, for sentences on criminal offenses.

    Chinese Dynasties put forth a system of labor for every adult to work for the state one month in each year. This though, was not a punishment, more an obligation to the Emperor(argue on ethics later).

    Imperial Russia made use of peasant conscription in the eighteenth century for the construction of St. Petersburg. Tens of thousands of peasants died driving wooden piles to the city. Later, tsars established penal laber for convicts would be sent thousands of miles under odd legal status.

    Our most direct legal precursor for concentration camps come from Columbus in his 1492 voyage. From 1500 to the 1800s, the timing of the campaigns varied, native communities were burned and millions were relocated out of the countryside into new villages or into mission compounds. Fortress garrisons enforced this. Jesuits, Franciscans, and Domiscans "civilized" their wards to convert them to Christianity. All to teach them to read and socialize them as Europeans.

    The United States removal of native populations in the eastern half of North America is...to me personally...icing on the cake in driving this point home. It began later than the Spanish efforts but was obviously similarly brutal, known as the Indian Wars, fought over roughly one hundred years. Forced relocation dragged the Cherokees across the Trail of Tears, held in detention camps rife with dysentery, before being forced further west, to modern Oklahoma.

    Canada, as well, did this to its indigenous peoples, pinning them down on reserves, and in some regions forced residents to apply for travel passes to leave their territory. All despite the fact the pass system had no legal foundation under the Indian Act or the Criminal Code.

    Lacking only more effective technology to enable complete detention, 19th Century Reservations foreshadowed the Camp System to come.

    Point 3. The first imperial willingness to commit to concentration camps can be found in the US Civil War. It's a rather watershed conflict in many ways, from tactics to strategy. But this is a rather unique facet. This forever transformed the treatment of civilians in combat. I will point you to the Confederate prisoner-of-war camp at Andersonville, Georgia. About thirteen thousand US soldiers died, and is sometimes considered a harbinger of the civilian concentration camps that soon followed. HOWEVER. The establishment of camps later in the century owes as much to the Union Army's approach to the war, as well as the actual tactics it employed to win.

    The Lieber Code of Conduct(Francis Lieber), written in 1863, tried for the first time to modernize the rules of war. It explicitly rejected torture and laid out a plan for humane treatment of noncombatants. But loopholes meant to deal with guerilla fighters and concerns about binding the military's hands too tightly left room for brutality. In a war of rebellion, the code authorized commanders to expel or imprison "disloyal civilians". Commanders were also authorized to administer "loyalty oaths", with a wide range of punishments permitted against those who refused. 'Though every attempt should be made to protect loyal citizens during the rebellion,' Lieber wrote, 'the burden of war should be made to fall disproprtionately on civilians deemed disloyal.' These elements would become point, game, match in the creation in concentration camps.

    Lieber's ideas forbidded torture. Good. However, it legitimized everything else, practically. Shortly after the Civil War, Germany took up the code almost wholesale. The code also served, ironically(and good), as the basis for the international laws of war, first at the Hague at 1899, second at Geneva in 1906.

    More irony from the Civil War. Major General William Sherman in 1864 advised his cavalry on its way through Virginia to hold all male civilians under the age of fifty "as prisoners of war not as citizen prisoners," setting in place a dichotomy that directly subordinated civilians to battle strategy. Sherman further instituted total war, in which all things under the sun, including civilians and their possessions, could be used as means to the military's desired end, with personal possessions destroyed alongside strategic assets.

    I will not say what Sherman did was a bad strategic thing. But, it has long reaching consequences.

    The point is, based on war up until now, the willingness to destroy everything was a revelation. The general's tactics would amaze and inspire generations of generals around the world. Five years later, it encouraged Prussian forces to adopt harsher methods in dealing with enemy civilians.

    Historians have analyzed how an increasing professionalization of the officer corps in militaries around the world during the 19th century and later seems to have had the paradoxical effect of heightened brutality against civilians. This normalization of extreme measures makes punishing civilians appear not only permissible, but necessary for any campaign to truly be committed to victory.

    Point 4. This comes about in the second half of the 19th Century. Elements for innovation would be public health(yes, really), census taking, and bureaucratic efficiencies, nevermind all the normal jail inventions such as barbed wire and automatic weapons.

    For public health, governments begin to take a role in maintaining public sanitation and disease-free communities, and 'counting-the-people' to track them toward that. Germ theory revealed the natore of contagion and how illnesses spread. Public Health measures introduced the idea that the state had a punitive role to play in protecting citizens through monitoring the spread of disease and enforcing health codes.

    Industrial innovations included barbed wire, mass produced in 1870s, immediately used in the then military campaigns. Ditches, trenches, and fortified buildings surrounded by barbed wire mazes changed battlefield tactics, slowing cavalry charges and delayed progress of foot soldiers. Not just used to keep soldiers out, it was used to keep prisoners in. Add the machine gun, automatic weapons would soon make it possible to have precise and devastating control over them. It would only take a small guard force to hold a tremendous number of detainees for a long time.

    War strategies already made civilian detention permissible. Now it's feasible. The brutalization of civilians is not only practiced on indigenous groups around the globe, but employed against white American southerners and Europeans as well.

    It's inevitable.

    Yet hindsight also brings with it a clarity lacking in the moment. Concentration camps perpetually offer the illusion of a simple solution to the malicious and myopic alike. If this were easy to understand, at least the myopic might be less inclined.

    They're a modern phenomenon and belong in the company of the atomic bomb as one of the few advanced innovations of violence. Other bombs existed before the atomic bomb. Concentration camps had precursors(see Trail of Tears), but regardless, they represent a deliberate escalation of tactics. In both cases, observers realize some genie was released from a bottle, but, in neither instance would it be possible to realize what would follow.

    Point 5. List

    Spanish-American War -
    In 1898 General Valeriano Weyler y Nicolau stripped the guerrillas of their ability to live off the land and camouflage themselves by moving three hundred thousand civilians into makeshift camps in spanish held cities on Cuba. Behind the entanglements and rings of barbed wire, the original residents were not inclined to welcome the refugees.

    In theory, local authorities were to build accommodations for newcomers and set aside parcels of land fur cultivations. In reality, the land was unusable. No tools, seeds, or oxen were provided, and new arrivals were expected to still provide enough food to be self-sustaining.

    Boer War -
    Emily Hobhouse visited South Africa and the Boer War in 1900. When she arrived rumors came out of 4,000 women and children in some sort of camp prison there. She caught a train to Bloemfontein, nevermind her military misteps, she was more worried how to handle the civilian crisis dumped in her lap.

    Uneven rows of tents along the side of a hill, with a mortuary tent and a tin-roofed hospital building at one end. Each family was given one tent of canvas. Not enough. Eventually new arrivals would sleep in wagons or railway carriages. Not enough water, no soap, measles were spreading. Dead bodies sometimes remained in tents long enough to rot. Almost half the prisoners were children out of two thousand. Children with typhoid, husbands punitively shipped thousands of miles away to POW camps on Ceylon.

    The Head Of Camp acknowledged she wanted to make life as livable as she could for the detainees but instantly admitted the creation of the camp was a colossal mistake. "Do what you will, you can't undo the itself which is odious."

    Within a week after her arrival, she put in a call for trained nurses and come up with a plan to boil river water to stop a typhoid epidemic. Some offered support. On the ground, she was viewed as a fool or a traitor.

    World War I -
    Less than a week after the Lusitania's destruction, the British government announced that all male enemy aliens of military age would be rounded up, to be interned on the Isle of Man. At that point, given mass industrialization, no one seemed to have any idea what mass internment would involve. When it would start, how it would work, or how long it might last. Hell, people it targeted walked into police stations asking about the policy only to be told that for the time being no one was planning to arrest them.

    Then detectives visit them. Turn yourself in at 10am tomorrow. Asked what they should bring, pack for a holiday. Two suitcases, hell maybe they'll be back next week. Some of these guys got to ride where they were going in a god damn taxi. That's how smoothly Britain played this. Understand that. A god damn taxi. They arrive in East End to see hundreds of others like them and at 6am the next day they're marched to the train station. Train to the coast. Good meal. Even a friendly civilian waiter. At the coast they're walked onto a ship and locked into the hold and standing upright with the rest and sailed over to the Isle of Man.

    Germany wasn't the first.

    Soviet Gulag -
    Despite their withdrawal from the conflict, the Bolsheviks were slow to release many enemy aliense interned under the tsar. Valuable labor. As others were released, the Revolutionary Leadership began to fill them with political enemies instead. The Bolsheviks immediately took a stance in favor of concentration camps, and one form of civilian detention flowed into another without gap.

    Ad hoc locations such as churches and cloisters were transformed into regional camps with regulations. Prisoners, both ill and hungry, were expected to help pay their way through labor. Alongside traditional Justice, alternate concentration camp system run by the Secret Police grew.

    World War II -
    Everybody knows of Auschwitz. The definition of horror, the death camps inspired the vow "Never again." Yet concentration camps themselves seem to keep coming up. The Gulag continued. And new camp systems in Africa and Asia holding millions were only a few years away.

    More World War II -
    With the arrival of the Germans, Gurs transitioned from a quasi-voluntary refugee camp to a dedicated detention camp. New arrivals were termed indesirables. Useless baggage. No beds. No closets for possessions. Detainees slept sixty to a barrax, thirty to a side. They were rationed 1,100 calories a day, so forget long term survival. Some considered suicide.

    PRRC -
    Chinese Labor exploded. The first years after 1949 are known as the Founding Terror. Prisoner population estimates range from four million upward with at least two million executed in the same period.

    At first, "remolding through labor", laogai, promised a semblance of legal process as prisoners went before tribunals. It's not always clear this process occurred, and when it did, there was no brief for the defense, and no protection for prisoner's rights. Unable to keep up with expanding waves of arrests and guilty verdicts, these first prison facilities quickly grew and overcrowded.

    The second system, laojiao, was administrative. A detainee would become a prisoner without formal charges or any official review of case. A three year term. Sentences could stretch to ten years without warning.

    Kenya -
    In 1952 people were brought to a camp in central Kenya to face interrogations and arbitrary screenings. Gatithi was a horror show. Women and men lived in seperate sections of the camp(admittedly not unique), but slept five to a small, crowded tent. People were taken for torture. They were divided into small groups for this. They were often given water but nothing to eat. Men were beaten. Women were raped. One would say, "It took years for me to find any hope but I have never really recovered from what was done to me."

    Guards passed the time by having prisoners jump into the deep, cold river, and beating them as they came out. They would burn prisoners with hot spades. There was never medical treatment for what was done to them.

    I can just keep going...
    Last edited by Gaidin; July 16, 2019 at 11:42 PM.
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  5. #3805

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    <snip>
    I can just keep going...
    And I can repost the EB article:
    "Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

    Which again, you repped me for providing and reposted yourself.
    Hmmm...
    Concentration Camps are "to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."

  6. #3806

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    And I can repost the EB article:
    "Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

    Which again, you repped me for providing and reposted yourself.
    Hmmm...
    Concentration Camps are "to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."
    He's trying to make his categorization stick because of the association between concentration camps and oppressive regimes. The actual point he's trying to make is that the US government (specifically the Trump administration) is morally abhorrent.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; July 17, 2019 at 02:11 AM.

  7. #3807

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    He's trying to make his categorization stick because of the association between concentration camps and oppressive regimes. The actual point he's trying to make is that the US government (specifically the Trump administration) is morally abhorrent.
    We’ve had dedicated facilities for one policy or another since at least Bush. Intermittent use can go back much further. At least seventy years. America is not a moral lighthouse in this subject. Trump basically ramped up overcrowding and separating families without providing adequate medical care with an eye to scaring new refugees away.

    This type of camp was addressed in my post.
    Last edited by Gaidin; July 17, 2019 at 04:53 AM.
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    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  8. #3808
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    In the UK we have the same thing, we call them removal centres. Do we have concentration camps?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-are-locked-up
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
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  9. #3809

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    No Aexodus: no one "bats an eye" at "comments like this"; no one is outraged; only a few outlets bothered writing articles about his latest remarks; it definitely wasn't headline news.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Oops.
    I'm not quite sure what your point here is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    He's trying to make his categorization stick because of the association between concentration camps and oppressive regimes. The actual point he's trying to make is that the US government (specifically the Trump administration) is morally abhorrent.
    There's no need to try to do anything. They are concentration camp.

  10. #3810

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I'm not quite sure what your point here is.
    Read the thread: Vanoi spent about an hour yesterday trying to argue that Trump's recent Twitter outburst about Cortez and Omar didn't make headlines and wasn't being widely discussed.

    There's no need to try to do anything. They are concentration camp.
    Cool historical illiteracy.

  11. #3811

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Read the thread: Vanoi spent about an hour yesterday trying to argue that Trump's recent Twitter outburst about Cortez and Omar didn't make headlines and wasn't being widely discussed.
    That's not quite what he said. While he's underplaying just how widespread the discussion was on media, you are overplaying it. Ironiaclly doing the same thing that you often accuse media of doing. Sensationalism, hyperbole, etc.

    Cool historical illiteracy.
    So it can't be a concentration camp if it was built after 1945? Or is the criteria that it has to be during war? Or it has to be built in China? Or perhaps we have to wait 20 years when it's no longer "political"? You tell me what a concentration camp is then.

  12. #3812

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    That's not quite what he said. While he's underplaying just how widespread the discussion was on media, you are overplaying it. Ironiaclly doing the same thing that you often accuse media of doing. Sensationalism, hyperbole, etc.
    He said that no one had batted an eye at the outburst, that no one was outraged and that only a few articles had been published on the matter. My pointing out how comically untrue this is isn't me "overplaying" anything.

    So it can't be a concentration camp if it was built after 1945? Or is the criteria that it has to be during war? Or it has to be built in China? Or perhaps we have to wait 20 years when it's no longer "political"? You tell me what a concentration camp is then.
    "A place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz."




  13. #3813

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    He said that no one had batted an eye at the outburst, that no one was outraged and that only a few articles had been published on the matter. My pointing out how comically untrue this is isn't me "overplaying" anything.
    Nobody batted an eye considering how many Trump scandals there have been. This is one more in a long line of many. Like I said, while Vanoi is certainly underplaying how much attention the latest twitter outburst has received, this is by no means out of the norm of the last few years. I'm happy that you've both found a bone to fight over, but you're not exactly disproving anything he's said.



    "A place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz."
    I fail to see how the situation in the detention centers AOC referred to, does not fit that criteria.

  14. #3814

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Nobody batted an eye considering how many Trump scandals there have been. This is one more in a long line of many. Like I said, while Vanoi is certainly underplaying how much attention the latest twitter outburst has received, this is by no means out of the norm of the last few years. I'm happy that you've both found a bone to fight over, but you're not exactly disproving anything he's said.
    Allow me to reiterate: no one batted an eye lid at his tweets; only a few articles were written about them; no one was outraged; they didn't make headline news; this wasn't the first time in over a century that the House has formally rebuked a President's comments; the moon is made of cheese and; you aren't embarrassing yourself by being arbitrarily contrarian.

    I fail to see how the situation in the detention centers AOC referred to, does not fit that criteria.
    I can only agree: Cortez is an impartial observer with humanitarian expertise who definitely didn't use her visit to the border to attention seek and self aggrandize. Her reaction the the conditions was entirely authentic.

  15. #3815
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Damn Suki I woulda expected better on this issue. Can you define how the detention centres for illegal immigrants are literal concentration camps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I wont lie, this is the last place I expected Lucifer to reveal his true form. But I can't say I'm not pleased.

  16. #3816

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Damn Suki I woulda expected better on this issue. Can you define how the detention centres for illegal immigrants are literal concentration camps?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Trump basically ramped up overcrowding and separating families without providing adequate medical care with an eye to scaring new refugees away.

    This type of camp was addressed in my post.
    The government may not have done this on purpose, that much is obvious. This can mostly be told by the fact that there are facilities in or near major cities as opposed to only in unlivable terrain, to basically keep people out of the way. If this was a purposeful design they would all be in the desert unless they were transit centers. But it did transition. Nothing is yet being done to reverse it, in spite of funding being passed.
    Last edited by Gaidin; July 17, 2019 at 08:10 PM.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  17. #3817

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Allow me to reiterate: no one batted an eye lid at his tweets; only a few articles were written about them; no one was outraged; they didn't make headline news; this wasn't the first time in over a century that the House has formally rebuked a President's comments; the moon is made of cheese and; you aren't embarrassing yourself by being arbitrarily contrarian.
    Yes, I read the last few pages. I can certainly see Vanoi's comments being accurate, especially within the broader context of Trump's presidency. This isn't exactly the first scandal of his presidency.

    I can only agree: Cortez is an impartial observer with humanitarian expertise who definitely didn't use her visit to the border to attention seek and self aggrandize. Her reaction the the conditions was entirely authentic.
    This doesn't answer my question. I'm not particularly interested about the "authenticity" of AOC. The authenticity of her argument, on the other hand, is much more important. The obsession with the nomenclature, and the inability to take it outside of World War 2 context reeks of phoniness, not concern for how we treat thousand of detained human beings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Damn Suki I woulda expected better on this issue. Can you define how the detention centres for illegal immigrants are literal concentration camps?
    They are being held en masse in extremely poor conditions. They have little to no legal rights or any kind of recourse while being held there. The main issue with the nomenclature seems to be concern over "devaluing" the horrors of the Holocaust. A nonsensical reason, even if it is emotionally appealing. Of course, I would not be surprised if such opposition is entirely phony and politically motivated instead.

  18. #3818
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Without the holocaust they’re not concentration camps either mate. They’re detaining illegal immigrants. That is it.

    Oxford English Dictionary:

    con·cen·tra·tion camp

    /ˌkänsənˈtrāSHən ˈˌkamp/

    noun


    • a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.





    Are you really telling me that the US government is giving them inadequate facilities on purpose?

    Merriam-Webster

    concentration camp

    noun


    Definition of concentration camp

    :a type of prison where large numbers of people who are not soldiers are kept during a war and are usually forced to live in very bad conditions
    It is no different to what Britain does. The reason I care about this at all is as with everything what happens in America today happens here tomorrow. I.e. British removal centres will probably be called ‘concentration camps’ which is utterly ing stupid.
    Last edited by Aexodus; July 18, 2019 at 12:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I wont lie, this is the last place I expected Lucifer to reveal his true form. But I can't say I'm not pleased.

  19. #3819
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Double
    Last edited by Aexodus; July 18, 2019 at 12:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I wont lie, this is the last place I expected Lucifer to reveal his true form. But I can't say I'm not pleased.

  20. #3820

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    According to filthy racist liberal journalists the problem with the Moon landing was that it was white and male culture.
    https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/s...iberals-virtue

    Sooner or later we'll have to deal with the problem. These people want to remove us from our society and write us off. It's us or them.

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