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Thread: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

  1. #5901
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    If you’re retreating from your claim that blacks are statistically over represented as victims of police killings, your further claim to have never made it warrants even less attention. Misrepresenting the conclusions of Fryer’s study won’t help you either. I don’t feel like playing the “I never said what I just said/you didn’t address my post/piss poor debating” game today, especially not two posts into an argument you’re already running from. Carry on.
    The hostility from you is childish. I haven't walked back from my claim. Black people in 2020 were overrepresented in fatal police shootings. Those statistics aren't going away.

    Oh and your study doesn't dispute what I said either. The Yale study explicitly says that Black and Hispanic people are more than 50% likely to experience use of force when interacting with police. Showing a difference in how different races interact with police as I said.
    Last edited by Vanoi; April 16, 2021 at 07:08 PM.

  2. #5902
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    Statistically black people are overrepresented when it comes to police related deaths.
    This claim is misleading and mostly false. While blacks may be killed by police at a rate higher than their percentage of the census population, that does not necessarily indicate they are statistically over represented. Fryer’s study found no racial disparity in the police use of deadly force, either in the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. The other study cited similarly concluded:
    In this article, we approached the question of racial dispa- rities in deadly force by starting with the widely used tech- nique of benchmarking fatal shooting data on population proportions. We questioned the assumptions underlying this analysis and instead proposed a set of more appropriate benchmarks given a more complete understanding of the con- text of police shootings. In doing so, a different picture emerges, one in which exposure to police accounts for the racial disparities in fatal shootings observed at the population level. One important contribution of this research is to exam- ine different types of shootings, allowing us to test predictions derived from the social psychological literature. Yet none of these tests provided evidence of systematic anti-Black dispar- ity. Moreover, the CDC data (as well as the evidence dis- cussed in Online Supplemental Material #2) provide a very strong test of whether biased policing accounts for these results.
    The Yale study explicitly says that Black and Hispanic people are more than 50% likely to experience use of force when interacting with police.
    This is a deliberate misrepresentation of Fryer’s conclusions, and does not validate the claim that blacks are statistically over represented in police killings.
    In the raw data, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force. Adding our full set of controls reduces the racial difference to 19.4 percent. On the most extreme use of force – officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account.
    Fryer’s selected controls at a dataset level don’t appear specific to effects at the neighborhood level, and in that context, even the lesser margin of disparity observed under Fryer’s controls does not necessarily indicate a racial cause:
    The authors found police officers are significantly more likely to use higher levels of force when suspects are encountered in disadvantaged neighborhoods and those with higher homicide rates, net of situational factors (e.g., suspect resistance) and officer-based determinants (e.g., age, education, and training). Also found is that the effect of the suspect's race is mediated by neighborhood context. The results reaffirm Smith's 1986 conclusion that police officers “act differently in different neighborhood contexts.”The findings presented here support Werthman and Piliavin’s (1967) “ecological contamination” hypothesis.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail
    The current study explored the relationship between neighborhood violence and police use of force at two levels of aggregation based on the work of Black (1976), Smith (1986), and Klinger (1997). The impact of neighborhood violence on police force has been often tested; however, no study has simultaneously examined the role of neighborhood violent crimes at the micro level and at the meso level.

    Regarding the individual and situational factors, the results of the current study showed no discrepancy with prior research. Blalock’s (1967) power-threat theory and Black’s (1976) sociological theory of law have often been used to test if minority individuals are dispropor- tionately subject to police use of force. Modern research, however, has shown that citizen race or officer race does not significantly affect levels of police force when citizen resistance to the police is statistically controlled (Garner et al., 2002; Lawton, 2007; Lee et al., 2010; Terrill & Reisig, 2003). The current study also found that citizen race and officer race do not significantly alter the amount of police force used; instead, citizen resistance during their encounter with the police was found to be the single most important factor in explaining elevated levels of police force.9 In addition, citizen age, citizen gender, officer age, officer education level, number of citizens involved, number of officers involved, and the nature of the offense were statistically significant, which is consistent with previous research (Alpert, Dunham, & Stroshine, 2006; Garner et al., 2002; Lawton, 2007; Lee et al., 2010

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...47235214000804
    This is consistent with BJS statistics showing police are equally likely to initiate contact with whites vs blacks.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; April 16, 2021 at 08:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  3. #5903
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    A clear majority of these fatalities are not unjustified.

    My place in our world aside, this is true. It is important to accept it as true. No more or less important that systemic racism exists in the US Justice system.

    Anyone who can’t accept these truths privately is young, blinded by narrative, lying to themself, hateful and cool with it, misinformed, ignorant, radicalized, indoctrinated, other sadnesses or like most parties worth attending a complex combination.
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  4. #5904
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    This claim is misleading and mostly false. While blacks may be killed by police at a rate higher than their percentage of the census population, that does not necessarily indicate they are statistically over represented.
    No that's exactly what it means. They are statistically overrepresented in regards to their population.

    You keep pointing out a study regarding racial disparity. That's cool but that deals in regard with discrimination having or not having a factor in in these fatal incidents. That doesn't actually invalidate what I said. You just simply expanded upon my statistic.

    You're also nit-picking from your study and left this part out completely:
    The results obtained using these data are informative and, in some cases, startling. Using
    data on NYC’s Stop and Frisk program, we demonstrate that on non-lethal uses of force – putting
    hands on civilians (which includes slapping or grabbing) or pushing individuals into a wall or onto
    the ground, there are large racial differences.
    In the raw data, blacks and Hispanics are more
    than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force.
    Accounting for baseline demographics such as age and gender, encounter characteristics such as
    whether individuals supplied identification or whether the interaction occurred in a high- or low-
    crime area, or civilian behaviors does little to alter the race coefficient. Adding precinct and year
    fixed effects, which estimates racial differences in police use of force by restricting to variation
    within a given police precinct in a given year reduces the black coefficient by 19.4 percent and the
    ogy, to study questions such as whether police treatment of citizens impacts the broader public opinion of the police
    (Miller et al., 2004).
    3
    You ignored this because to want to focus solely on fatal shootings when your own study shows racial disparities between black/hispanic people and white people in regards to whenever police use force during a racial interaction.

    This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force,
    blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force
    in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian
    behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities.
    On the most extreme use of force –
    officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual
    factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a
    model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for
    discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings.
    Your own study's abstract plain out admits there are racial disparities they can't explain in regards to interactions with police.

  5. #5905
    Lord Thesaurian's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi
    No that's exactly what it means. They are statistically overrepresented in regards to their population.
    Doubling down on your misleading rhetoric is especially inane when it has been addressed and refuted in detail. To reiterate in summary: “exposure to police accounts for the racial disparities in fatal shootings observed at the population level.” You have no argument.
    You keep pointing out a study regarding racial disparity. That's cool but that deals in regard with discrimination having or not having a factor in in these fatal incidents. That doesn't actually invalidate what I said. You just simply expanded upon my statistic.

    You're also nit-picking from your study and left this part out completely:
    This is false, as quoted directly, regardless of the effort to project your misrepresentations of the Yale study in order to avoid its conclusions. To reiterate, the 19% racial disparity in overall use of force Freyer notes as unexplained does not mean race is therefore the cause. Furthermore, the disparity is potentially explained by the other cited studies you ignored. Your suggestion there is no conflict between your claim blacks are statistically over represented in police killings, and the evidence indicating they aren’t, is inherently nonsensical.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; April 16, 2021 at 10:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  6. #5906
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Doubling down on your misleading rhetoric is especially inane when it has been addressed and refuted in detail. To reiterate in summary: “exposure to police accounts for the racial disparities in fatal shootings observed at the population level.”
    You have no argument. Inherently nonsensical.
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  7. #5907
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Interesting article about how Maoism in China has warped social morality in ways eerily similar to the environment created by left wing identity politics (itself a product of Marxist/Maoist political thought) in the US.
    The moral holocaust of the late Mao years did not obliterate the Chinese sense of justice, however. It is more accurate to say that it narrowed it. From what might in earlier times have been called a “confident expectation of shared norms” (even if they were not observed), the Chinese sense of justice morphed into “self-righteous indictment of others.” Justice was still the point, but it showed not as empathy for victims but as indignation at victimizers.

    Not to lie low runs the risk of being labeled “dissident,” and that can bring disaster. As a Chinese saying puts it, “the bird that sticks its neck out gets its head blown off.” Still, a few intrepid birds do keep sticking necks out from time to time, thereby risking their jobs, their children’s access to school, their permission to travel, and even their freedom. The first people to criticize dissidents are often their own families: Are you stupid? What are you doing? Don’t drag us into it. Dissidents often do feel guilty for exposing their families to punishment.

    Most people are not foolhardy and stay within bounds. But their ethical thinking is still there, beneath the surface, and leads to a “split psychology” that has been widely noticed in China. At a dinner table with trusted friends, people might denounce the pompous language of the state, bemoan the cynicism of society, and even curse top leaders by name, but then, the next day, they don their invisible armor, put on a different face, and take their places in the machine of public life.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/magaz...disfigurement/
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    64% of Americans believe “cancel culture” is a growing threat to our freedom.

    https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-con...Topline_RV.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  8. #5908
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Interesting article about how Maoism in China has warped social morality in ways eerily similar to the environment created by left wing identity politics (itself a product of Marxist/Maoist political thought) in the US.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    64% of Americans believe “cancel culture” is a growing threat to our freedom.

    https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-con...Topline_RV.pdf

    I wonder what that percentage is if white men are taken out of the polling?
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  9. #5909
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    To the surprise of no one, the widely reported allegation that Russia offered insurgents cash to kill American soldiers has turned out to be false.
    Last edited by Cope; April 19, 2021 at 09:18 PM.

  10. #5910
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    To the surprise of no one
    I was surprised. First time for you. Being wrong. Popped that cherry. Congrats bro. Big day. Good times.
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  11. #5911
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Israel is being attacked.

  12. #5912
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Israel is being attacked.
    Zechariah - King James Version
    14 1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Zechariah - King James Version
    14 1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    The Lord has cometh and spoils divided quite a lot over the years...
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  14. #5914

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Argentinian pro-abortion leader dies during abortion procedure

    https://www.voiceforlife.org.nz/medi...tion-procedure
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    Exarch

  15. #5915

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I know of seven Electors that held considerable military power compared to their state...
    They were also executive heads of state.


    Try declaring a sovereign state around your freehold.
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  16. #5916
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Israel is being attacked.
    I'd wager they "agreed" with the Syrian government that it was a misfire, so Assad wouldn't have to own up to the incompetence of his missile troops and Israel woudn't have to retaliate on a larger scale.

    On another note, I read Erdogan has banned mentioning the number 128, because that is the amount (in billion $) "vanished" from the Turkish central bank's reserves under the influence of Erdogan's previous minister for economy, and people kept asking where the 128 billion $ went. After the ban people started asking about where half of 256 billion $ went, which was forbidden as well. Sooner or later the Turkish government will have to ban all multiples and non-trivial divisors of 128. Tough luck for Erdogan he didn't embezzle a prime number amount of dollars. That would have spared him the trouble of banning the divisors at the cost of a measly 1 billion $...
    Last edited by Iskar; April 25, 2021 at 12:39 PM.
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  17. #5917

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    On another note, I read Erdogan has banned mentioning the number 128, because that is the amount (in billion $) "vanished" from the Turkish central bank's reserves under the influence of Erdogan's previous minister for economy, and people kept asking where the 128 billion $ went. After the ban people started asking about where half of 256 billion $ went, which was forbidden as well. Sooner or later the Turkish government will have to ban all multiples and non-trivial divisors of 128. Tough luck for Erdogan he didn't embezzle a prime number amount of dollars. That would have spared him the trouble of banning the divisors...
    Completely bogus. The issue of 128 billion dollars worth of reserves disappearing over central bank's back door exchange rate stabilization efforts continues to be a big topic. Wherever you read that is trying to portray Turkey as something more than it is. The number or its accompanying topic is not banned in Turkey.
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  18. #5918
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    I found that in my daily newspaper which is usually pretty reliable. It does seem hard to find english-speaking sources on this, though. Here's one, albeit not high profile.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    Under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  19. #5919

    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I found that in my daily newspaper which is usually pretty reliable. It does seem hard to find english-speaking sources on this, though. Here's one, albeit not high profile.
    Looks like rather opportunistic journalism. Pretty much every day there is a debate on that topic on mainstream news channels, government affiliated or not. It's been sidelined in the last 2 days since new topics took the center stage. Multiple government officials had to come on TV to give long interviews on trying to explain where the money is. The head of central bank was on CNN Turk on Friday night. The worst I can point at was how certain opportunistic municipality workers tried to take down a number of banner posters with that number. Posters with Erdoğan's "palace's" silhouette behind the numbers "128" were taken down under accusations of libel but new posters with only the number was put back up. An article from opposition newspaper saying questions about 128 billion dollars left unanswered from yesterday. Another article from an other opposition newspaper talking about some details of the loss. There are absolutely no examples of bans of this number in general anyways.
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  20. #5920
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    Default Re: Discussion and Debate Community Thread

    Thanks for putting this in perspective.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    Under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

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