Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[Ukiah]

Something strange is going on in South Korea...





https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...g-mayor-seoul/

Police search for the missing mayor of Seoul

Park Won-soon was reported missing by his daughter after he left her a 'strange' voicemail that 'sounded like a will'

-Thread merged due to insufficient OP. ~Abdülmecid I

[swabian]

I think there is a massacre against annoing cameramen in the air. Soon.

[Prodromos]

Tobias Cremer, a PhD candidate at the University of Cambridge, talks about the role religion plays in populist movements in Europe and the United States.

Cremer discusses how populists on the streets of Dresden carried oversized crosses, but when asked the vast majority of protestors self-identified as irreligious or atheist. Instead of believing in the basic Christian tenets as American evangelicals would understand them, most European populists cling to a cultural Christian identity without believing the theology. According to Cremer’s research based on numerous interviews, the populists claim they and their society are Christian because they have a church in their town instead of a mosque, not because they attend church; they are Christian because they are not Muslim.

In contrast, he found most Christians in Germany and France who practice the faith regularly shun the populist parties, and attending church was a strong indicator against supporting parties like the Alternative für Deutschland (Alternative for Germany, or AFD) or Rassemblement national (National Rally, formally known as the National Front).

He further talks about the conflict between the Religious Right and the Secular/Populist Right (including in the US), and how the presence of the Religious Right in the conservative movement actually acts as a barrier against racism and nationalism.

"There's a new dividing line in the Republican Party, in the administration. There's this new, more secular nationalist movement around people like Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller, who clashed in particular with the Christian right. And it was very often the Evangelical voices within the administration, who might be more conservative on issues such as abortion and gay marriage, but who are actually a moderating voice on issues such as immigration and race relations and national identity questions."

"It is very interesting that we tend to see that this identitarian appeal to Christianity, purely cultural appeal, actually tends to be most successful amongst irreligious voters and non-practicing, cultural Christians, whereas practicing Christians often remain comparatively immune to such appeals."

Extremely fascinating lecture. It's a bit long, but the key part is between 20:00-40:00, though I recommend watching all of it if you have the time.

[Gaius Baltar]

I have been asked to "develop" the OP in my thread on Uyghurs being marched onto boxcars. While I note that my OP is not that different from many other threads in the Mudpit, does anyone have a suggestion on how to add material once a thread has been started? And what constitutes a "developed" OP in a thread?

[Lord Thesaurian]

You could connect it to relevant current or historical trends pertaining to the regime’s routine liquidation of ideological undesirables, or the Politburo’s ultimate goals in such efforts. Why now/timing is also an interesting avenue. Take a penny leave a penny.

https://chinatribunal.com/wp-content...a-Tribunal.pdf

[swabian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeWs9fqLbec

[AnthoniusII]

From yesterday 40 Turkish and 35 Greek ships are one infront of an other ready to push the button.
Greek Army called to arms all reserves and everything shows that we go for an escalation. But remember that escalation may mean WAR.
Not like in Lybia or Syria.
Greece has more tanks that the entire EU members together (1650 active and 450 in reserve).
Also has the 2nd largest EU airforce with 600 planes of all kinds.
Turkey has more but its airforce has no pilots since the coop 4 years ago!
If Erdogan dream to become the new Mehmet and Conqueror prevails hell will be loose!
This may be one of the last posts i write before go to my post.
Glory to 16th Armored Brigade! Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but WHERE THEY ARE!

-Merged with the chat thread, as the OP lacks any sufficient basis for discussion. ~Abdülmecid I

[antaeus]

Wait... what?

[Daruwind]

https://www.ekathimerini.com/254978/...reece-on-alert

Anyway hopefully it is just show down and nothing serious will happen. But in case, keep safe and hopefully nothing will fly your fly Anthonius

[antaeus]

Ah right. So it's some run-of-the-mill chest beating.

The usual.

[PointOfViewGun]

From yesterday 40 Turkish and 35 Greek ships are one infront of an other ready to push the button.
Greek Army called to arms all reserves and everything shows that we go for an escalation. But remember that escalation may mean WAR.
Not like in Lybia or Syria.
Greece has more tanks that the entire EU members together (1650 active and 450 in reserve).
Also has the 2nd largest EU airforce with 600 planes of all kinds.
Turkey has more but its airforce has no pilots since the coop 4 years ago!
If Erdogan dream to become the new Mehmet and Conqueror prevails hell will be loose!
This may be one of the last posts i write before go to my post.
Glory to 16th Armored Brigade! Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but WHERE THEY ARE!

Spartans are dead. Rotted long ago under the Roman boots...

The conflict in question revolves around Turkey sending a research ship (for oil or gas reserves) to the following area off the coast of Kaş:



Right off the coast of Kaş on that map, there are a number of tiny Greek islands that you can't even see in the scale above. Greece says that Turkey is violating Greek continental shelf because of those islands. Anticipating the research ship in the following picture to be harassed by Greek ships, Turkey sent a number of warships to accompany Oruç Reis. The 40 Turkish ships claim belongs to Greek Prime Minister but I doubt the totality of the Turkish navy makes up 40 ships. There certainly aren't that many active warships. Perhaps they're counting the zodiac boats as well...



Currently, the Oruç Reis is still in a port near Antalya per MarineTraffic. There doesn't seem to be any out of usual activity in the region. The ship is expected sail today while its being accompanied by two Turkish frigates. Tanks might have a hard time getting there though...

[Nebaki]

Greece says that Turkey is violating Greek continental shelf because of those islands.

Additional to your post Greek government also claims that because of these small Island:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Turkey is not allowed to make any abilitiy with his ships under this Areal in the Eastern Mediterranean:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Because this Areal (according to Greek State) belongs to Greece territory:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Btw the coordinates of Turkish Navtex today:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Beorn]

First of all, I want to distance myself from Antonius' hysterics.
Turkey declared that it's going to make oil surveys within Greek EEZ, and anticipating the Greek reaction set out with their fleet towards the area. In response, Pretty much every seaworthy greek navy ship was given orders to sail there too. Neither the Greek Navy nor the Turkish one (I think) have the number of commissioned, sail-worthy vessels claimed above.
The Turkish goal is to force the two sides on the negotiation table through an international incident, in order to reverse some of the treaties of the last century and make some bi-national agreement regarding the EEZ, as the UNCLoS laws are against their claims in the eastern Mediterranean. They did the same in 1987 but were forced to abandon the Thasos area, and according to Bild, the Navtex won't go on after Merkel intervened.

Nebaki's posts contain bollocks propaganda as usual, so let's show the correct maps, for the billionth time:

This is the map with the turkish (illegal) EEZ claims in the area, as highlighted by their recent agreement with Saraj's regime in Libya.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and this is the EEZ of Greece, according to UNCLoS treaties

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Turkey has not signed the international UNCLoS treaty, because according to the definitions included in its articles they have to accept their limited EEZ.

[dogukan]

Is it really difficult to say that the claims for both sides look ridiculous?

Both sides seem to obviously push way too hard. Turkey's claim around Cyprus and from next to Rhodes to Crete seems crazy.
So does Greece's claim to lock Turkey in due to 2 small islands close to Turkey...

God I hate nationalism...

[Aexodus]

To be absolutely fair, if there are natural resources at stake, there is more to this than simply pride and national ego. But of course, there is always going to be a raising of one's hackles if they perceive someone trespassing, or even worse stealing what they believe to be there's.

And to summarise, is the concept of territorial waters a nationalist concept? In the age of the nation state, probably. Is that a bad thing? It depends.

What is certainly ridiculous however, is appealing to the legacy of Spartan hoplites or whatever, or presenting what I feel is a made up map.

And all the while, there is chest thumping buffoonery on both sides.

[PointOfViewGun]

First of all, I want to distance myself from Antonius' hysterics.
Turkey declared that it's going to make oil surveys within Greek EEZ, and anticipating the Greek reaction set out with their fleet towards the area. In response, Pretty much every seaworthy greek navy ship was given orders to sail there too. Neither the Greek Navy nor the Turkish one (I think) have the number of commissioned, sail-worthy vessels claimed above.
The Turkish goal is to force the two sides on the negotiation table through an international incident, in order to reverse some of the treaties of the last century and make some bi-national agreement regarding the EEZ, as the UNCLoS laws are against their claims in the eastern Mediterranean. They did the same in 1987 but were forced to abandon the Thasos area, and according to Bild, the Navtex won't go on after Merkel intervened.
Nebaki's posts contain bollocks propaganda as usual, so let's show the correct maps, for the billionth time:
This is the map with the turkish (illegal) EEZ claims in the area, as highlighted by their recent agreement with Saraj's regime in Libya.
and this is the EEZ of Greece, according to UNCLoS treaties
Turkey has not signed the international UNCLoS treaty, because according to the definitions included in its articles they have to accept their limited EEZ.

There is no basis for you to present those maps as legal or illegal. There is no basis for you to claim that what Greece claims is according to UNCLOS. It's not as it violates the principle of equity. It also goes against countless international agreements and arbitration results. Under international practices neither side can get 100% of what they claim but the end result will likely be closer to what Turkey claims than it would to what Greece claims.

[Nebaki]

They did the same in 1987 but were forced to abandon the Thasos area, and according to Bild, the Navtex won't go on after Merkel intervened.

Nebaki's posts contain bollocks propaganda as usual, so let's show the correct maps, for the billionth time:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and this is the EEZ of Greece, according to UNCLoS treaties

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Turkey has not signed the international UNCLoS treaty, because according to the definitions included in its articles they have to accept their limited EEZ.

How my post bollocking propaganda as usual when that Greece whatever they claim is very close to my post? i just add Cyprus (Greek-Part of it) additional to Greek ones. It´s the same and btw no one takes BILD serious in Germany it´s nothing beyond a joke.

Should i go deeper on your claim on 1987? Since 2011 you guys starting to share everythere these kind of obviously funny maps:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Since 2011 what happened to Greece? maybe you can remind us that.

Additional to that Greece Self-proclaimed their territorial Waters from 6 Nautical miles to 12 Nautical miles:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But for the for the billionth time Greek, that´s not how it works nowhere in the World.

[Lord Thesaurian]

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/foru...ht-Competition

Guys don’t forget to vote/nominate for POTF.

[Love Mountain]

To be absolutely fair, if there are natural resources at stake, there is more to this than simply pride and national ego. But of course, there is always going to be a raising of one's hackles if they perceive someone trespassing, or even worse stealing what they believe to be there's.

It's never been about natural resources, that's just a distraction. It's about airspace, territorial waters, and the legal ramifications of accepting the status quo. Fact of the matter is, this,



would be intolerable to any regional power. For a more relatable example, this is the same reason why the Cuban Missile Crisis was such a big deal. If Turkey accepts Greek sovereignty over those islands, in the event of war, or rising tensions, those islands can be used to restrict Turkish airspace and to put Turkey on a negotiating backfoot. Turkey's objective here is to secure their nearby airspace and vital sea lanes. This is also why Turkey is becoming more active and interested in the Mediterranean in general. Turkey's ambitions to become a regional power necessitates challenging Greek ownership of these islands.

Turkey should give up all of her ambitions and fall in line as a good boy member of NATO and aspire to join EU. Her citizens and security will be better off for it, but nobody likes giving up sovereignty and dreams. Good luck to Turkey, but the current posture will probably push Greece ever closer to NATO and the West, who can out-muscle and outspend Turkey in any type of confrontation.

[Coughdrop addict]

Tucker Carlson: 'Matt Drudge is now firmly a man of the progressive left'

So after all of the complaints about cancel culture by the right, here's Carlson trying to do the same to someone that occasionally disagrees with Trump.