Discussion and Debate Community Thread

[Condottiere 40K]

There's your problem, not a wall, but a moat.

With crocodiles or alligators.

[enoch]

There's your problem, not a wall, but a moat.

With crocodiles or alligators.

These migrants come from places of terror. They eat crocodiles for breakfast.

[Lord Thesaurian]

America formally concedes total defeat in Afghanistan, and announces plans to surrender and retreat by September.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-1/7205023002/

We assess that prospects for a peace deal will remain low during the next year. The Taliban is likely to make gains on the battlefield, and the Afghan Government will struggle to hold the Taliban at bay if the coalition withdraws support.
Kabul continues to face setbacks on the battlefield, and the Taliban is confident it can achieve military victory.
Afghan forces continue to secure major cities and other government strongholds, but they remain tied down in defensive missions and have struggled to hold recaptured territory or reestablish a presence in areas abandoned in 2020.
https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/docum...ied-Report.pdf

Afaik it’s unclear what this means for the thousands of allied troops relying on USM support.

[irontaino]

Shoulda been out of there a long time ago. This was a war that did not need to last 20 years. The invasion only made things worse than they already were.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Even some Democrats have criticized the arbitrary deadline as sending the wrong message and posing a risk to any gains made during the last 20 years. US surrender doesn’t mean the end of the war, it just means American troops will not be fighting it. The Afghan government forces will continue to fight of course, and lose. NATO handed over responsibility for Afghan security to Kabul, and the US combat role ended, in 2014. The small and dwindling number of remaining US troops had been operating in a support role ever since. That support will now presumably be withdrawn altogether.

Troops will remain to protect the US embassy and other assets. All the formal withdrawal accomplishes is to send a message to US allies on the ground that we are an unreliable partner, and to the Taliban that they need only bide their time and prepare. The costs of total withdrawal to regional security far outweigh those of maintaining the existing small force on the ground to support the Afghan government and deter the Taliban from reigniting all out civil war that will almost certainly end in their victory. The only coherent argument for leaving is a hope that the Taliban will see it as an gesture of good faith and will be appeased into a peace deal with the Afghan government (rofl).

[Cyclops]

Is anyone naïve or stupid enough to believe there was another way to end this?

Shoulda been out of there a long time ago.

Indeed, "everyone wins their first Afghan War".

Bush Snr had the right idea, you visit Hell on your enemies and leave. Its not about the money, its about sending a message. Apparently Anaconda and Enduring Freedom were about the money.

This was a war that did not need to last 20 years.

Just to nitpick, I'd say the war lasted 6 months really, from late 2001 to the setting up of the absurd puppet state in early 2002. The occupation was the problem, like it was for Elphinstone and the Russians.

The invasion only made things worse than they already were.

Look they got Bin Laden, Al Qaeda was severely damaged an the Taliban was put in a box for a while although probably all those objectives could have been achieved more cost effectively. I think Haliburton and some other oil boys made a mint. I'm sure Dick Cheney saw that as win/win.

Sad thing is like Vietnam once you're there its very hard to leave. Withdrawal is politically difficult because the other side's simps will start chanting about how you lost so it becomes a game of chicken. You can take your shame and run (like Reagan bugging out of Lebanon, at least Shulz, Weinberger and Bush Snr showed they had a brain there) or leave a stinking mess for the next guy. Obama and Trump had no solutions because there were none, they just left the mess for someone else to deal with.

[enoch]

Bernie Madoff, the Robin Hood of Wall Street, has finally been killed in prison (likely by the Clintons). A hero of Antifa and commies everywhere, he dies having stolen more money from Rich White People than anyone else in history besides Trump.

Feel the Bern
Is there still an RIP thread?

[Abdülmecid I]

Criminals acting like criminals? Shocking. Truly.

I think most drug dealers would hesitate to fatally shoot a 13 years-old boy raising his hands.

[Cope]

For some brief context, a still image showing Toledo less than a second before he was shot:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Abdülmecid I]

Yes, he tossed that object behind the fence, as the officer demanded and raised his hands above his head. I thought the point of this gesture is to surrender peacefully, not get shot at the heart. By the way, the article I cited mentions that Toledo held an object, which he threw moments before he was killed, so what is the point of this "brief context"?

[Iskar]

The problem with the political issue, not the concept, of firearm regulations, is that it's driven by fear of missing out, rather than a balance of power between the State and the electorate.

Because no State will ever permit an elector to have a ground to air missile, man portable, sane, competent or otherwise.

I know of seven Electors that held considerable military power compared to their state...

[Cope]

Yes, he tossed that object behind the fence, as the officer demanded and raised his hands above his head. I thought the point of this gesture is to surrender peacefully, not get shot at the heart. By the way, the article I cited mentions that Toledo held an object, which he threw moments before he was killed, so what is the point of this "brief context"?

The officer appears to make a split-second judgement regarding Toledo's movements in the context of having witnessed him being armed (could have been a replica gun/BB gun) less than a second previously.

The suggestion that the officer knew (or should reasonably have known) that Toledo was turning to surrender and shot him anyway is likely false. This can be deduced from the speed of the incident and from what was visible from the officer’s perspective - which likely did not include Toledo disposing of the weapon.

The video evidence suggests that when confronted, Toledo sought to rapidly rid himself of the weapon to obscure the fact that it had been in his possession (hence why he threw it behind a fence). His attempt to conceal his prior possession of the weapon had the adverse effect of preventing the officer from seeing him dispense of it. This added a degree of dangerous ambiguity to Toledo’s motion toward the officer.

[PointOfViewGun]

The officer appears to make a split-second judgement regarding Toledo's movements in the context of having witnessed him being armed less than a second previously.

The suggestion that the officer knew (or should reasonably have known) that Toledo was turning to surrender and shot him anyway is likely false. This can be deduced from the speed of the incident and from what was visible from the officer’s perspective - which likely did not include Toledo disposing of the firearm.

The video evidence suggests that when confronted, Toledo sought to rapidly rid himself of the firearm to obscure the fact that it had been in his possession (hence why he threw it behind a fence). His attempt to conceal his prior possession of the weapon had the adverse effect of preventing the officer from seeing him dispense of it. This added a degree of dangerous ambiguity to Toledo’s motion toward the officer.

It is your opinion that the officert witnessed him having a weapon. Except, the officer says "show me your ing hands" and then shots him as the kid raises his hands. He doesn't say "drop the weapon" or anything like that. At no point in the body cam video does it show that the officer was aware that the kid had a gun at some point. The video doesn't show Toledo to have a gun to show him get rid of it. The officer only saw a kid running away from him, nothing more.

Why are you trying to alter the reality of the case?

[Cope]

It is your opinion that the officert witnessed him having a weapon. Except, the officer says "show me your ing hands" and then shots him as the kid raises his hands. He doesn't say "drop the weapon" or anything like that. At no point in the body cam video does it show that the officer was aware that the kid had a gun at some point. The video doesn't show Toledo to have a gun to show him get rid of it. The officer only saw a kid running away from him, nothing more.

Why are you trying to alter the reality of the case?

This is false. The officer shouts "drop it" moments before the shot is fired. As the images posted above indicate, Toledo was in possession of what appears to be a firearm less than a second before he is shot.

[PointOfViewGun]

This is false. The officer shouts "drop it" moments before the shot is fired. As the images posted above indicate, Toledo was in possession of what appears to be a firearm less than a second before he is shot.

No, he doesn't. I watched the raw footage which I can't post it here but you can easily find it Twitter. It wouldn't make sense of him to say that as the kid didn't have the gun while he was raising his hands when the officer shot him. The gun couldn't be where it is in the picture if he had it in his hands as he was raising his hands.

[Cope]

No, he doesn't. I watched the raw footage which I can't post it here but you can easily find it Twitter. It wouldn't make sense of him to say that as the kid didn't have the gun while he was raising his hands when the officer shot him. The gun couldn't be where it is in the picture if he had it in his hands as he was raising his hands.

Click on the BBC article (includes nothing outside of the ToS). From the article: "Bodycam video shows the policeman shouting "drop it" before shooting Adam Toledo once in the chest on 29 March." In the accompanying footage, the officer shouting "drop it" is clearly audible. The body cam images also clearly show Toledo holding what appears to be a weapon less than a second before he is shot. See post #5869.

[PointOfViewGun]

Click on the BBC article (includes nothing outside of the ToS). From the article: "Bodycam video shows the policeman shouting "drop it" before shooting Adam Toledo once in the chest on 29 March." In the accompanying footage, the officer shouting "drop it" is clearly audible. The body cam images also clearly show Toledo holding what appears to be a weapon less than a second before he is shot. See post #5869.

If I have access to the raw footage I don't need somebody else's interpretation of it. The officer shoots the kid after both his empty hands were clearly visible to him. I don't care at what point before he had a gun. At the moment and the one before the officer saw his hands the kid had no gun.

[Cope]

If I have access to the raw footage I don't need somebody else's interpretation of it.

The claim that the officer "doesn't say "drop the weapon" or anything like that" was false. The body camera footage/audio clearly demonstrates it to be false. Any further denial of this fact (minus convincing evidence) will be treated as disinformation.

The officer shoots the kid after both his empty hands were clearly visible to him. I don't care at what point before he had a gun. At the moment and the one before the officer saw his hands the kid had no gun.

Feel free to comment on the explanation offered above without relying on false claims about the incident.

[PointOfViewGun]

The claim that the officer "doesn't say "drop the weapon" or anything like that" was false. The body camera footage/audio clearly demonstrates it to be false. Any further denial of this fact (minus convincing evidence) will be treated as disinformation.
Feel free to comment on the explanation offered above without relying on false claims about the incident.

Gainsaying isn't an argument.

[Cope]

Gainsaying isn't an argument.

I agree. Please stop mindlessly contradicting the evidence.