Medieval Kingdoms Total War: General Overview (WIP)

[nnnm]

I don't say u should Ottomans from the start of the mod. I'm just clearing out that they were part of Rum Seljuks and declared independent because the central power where weak and unable to maintain it control over all of it's specially that the sultans since Kaykhisro II where under the Ilkhanate control and the Brawnah of the Ilkhanate held the true power not the Sultans however all of this can't be simulated in any TW game specially that the mod starts b4 the mongol attacks all together unless the start date is changed but there is no need to complicate things too much

[OutsiderKK]

Actually, they did.

He was an ethnic Mongol from the Barlas tribe.

Barlas tribe was Turkicized long before Timur was born. his lineage was Uzbek even though the tribe he belonged to was Mongolic long before he was born. Genghis Khan was an idol for Timur. Just like Alexander the Great was for Mehmed the Conqueror. The way you look at it Sultanate of Rum saw themselves as the new Roman Empire. Golden Horde was Mongolic (later Turkicized) but that doesn't mean its successor Crimean Khanate was Mongolic, it was Turkic. Mongolic wasn't a spoken language in Timurid Empire. There was only Persian and Chagatai Turkic languages.If Timurids were Mongolic then Hungarians, Bulgarians and Avars were Turkic. But no; they weren't they lost their origins just like Barlas did years ago before Timur was born. He is seen as a hero in Central asian Turkic coutries, Azerbaijan and Turkey. Nobody gives a damn about him in Mongolia. If you want to learn about the Great Turkic and Turkicized states in history I suggest you look at the Turkey's presidential seal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...sidential_seal

[Swarbs]

I don't say u should Ottomans from the start of the mod.

So what are you saying? The Ottomans are already in the mod as an emergent faction, and thus will arise if the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum collapses. Ergo the mod already simulates history, it just doesn't allow Ottomans to be playable due to the 1212 start date.

Barlas tribe was Turkicized long before Timur was born.

Turko-Mongol tribes are still descended from the Mongols, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, or how it's relevant to the mod?

[Peanut2bigforyou]

I'm ecstatic about this mod! I bought Attila TW literally for the purpose of playing this mod. The vassal relations you guys are doing is amazing!! I only wish the map could be larger... But I do really wish the whole team the best, because TW games of late have so much potential, and I believe this mod can very well unlock said potential, and make this game glorious!

And will the Byzantine "Successor" States have any form of vassalage/alliance at the beginning? I know for a fact that they were vassals before the Crusades, but not certain about afterwords (when they retook most of Anatolia for a while).

[OutsiderKK]

Turko-Mongol tribes are still descended from the Mongols, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, or how it's relevant to the mod?

Read the whole comment and you'll understand.

[nnnm]

So what are you saying? The Ottomans are already in the mod as an emergent faction, and thus will arise if the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum collapses. Ergo the mod already simulates history, it just doesn't allow Ottomans to be playable due to the 1212 start date.

the Ottoman are just one of Bays or Amirs under Rum seljuks at the mod starts. however the ottomans weren't the only Baylike who became independent. there is many of them and some of them survived till 15thC (Ramadanids or Ramadan Bays survived till early 17th C and their capital where Adana city). again most those Bays where part of Rum seljuks or from Bays under the seljuks. simply in the game the Seljuks sultans line will be represented in main family branch. others bays will be represented in the Others family. u can make an event and the rum seljuks will turn into the ottoman and have their units when 14th C starts or made it. the mods starts in 1212 and I don't see how it possible to simulate what happened historically after more than 300 turns into the campaign.

[+Marius+]

the Ottoman are just one of Bays or Amirs under Rum seljuks at the mod starts.

Again, they were not.

Osman and his predecessors were the rulers of the Turkic Kayı boyu tribe, not some "ottoman" tribe/faction.

The very term "Ottoman" did not exist prior to Osman coming to power in 1299, that year is basically the earliest moment in history that you could use the term as the name itself is tied to Osman I.

[nnnm]

No they were. they just weren't called Ottomans yet. otherwise what u suggest to represent the Ottomans ?? and dude ... Osman decleared independance in 1299 but he was ruling Sugat since his father death in about 1281 and that is about 18 years defferance between them ... the new expansion of Attila will enable the team to change the old faction name to new one in the campaing if the conditions required are met.

[OutsiderKK]

It is true that they weren't called Ottoman before their independence. They were Kayı tribe. But when they declared independence that meant they would have to accept other tribes into the state and it would be a state that had more than Kayı tribesman. So they had dropped their tribal(also nomadic) name and system.

It was a tradititon for Turks to name their states with the founder's, an ancestors(father grandfather) or the city/region that the state was founded if the founders are not Nobles(Ghaznavids,Khwarezmids). Only Mamluks are an exception.

If you ask me the problem is the words "Osmanlı" or "Osmanoglu" being pronounced as Ottoman in English is really dumb. It would be better if it was "Osmanian" or "Osmanid".

[Swarbs]

the mods starts in 1212 and I don't see how it possible to simulate what happened historically after more than 300 turns into the campaign.

I completely agree. This is why we shouldn't have some artificial script to change the name of the faction at an arbitrary time under arbitrary conditions.

This mod simulates a new version of history beginning in 1212AD. Therefore under this new version it is entirely possible that the Ottomans wouldn't emerge at all - there's no reason why a player who wants to play as the Seljuks should be forced to avoid expanding or building too much to avoid being turned into the Ottomans.

Ultimately, the rise of the Ottomans came from the failure of the Seljuks. Therefore that is the condition under which they arise in the mod - as an emergent faction in the Seljuk controlled regions. That's how the Ottomans are represented in the mod.

If enough people want playable Ottomans, then the best option is to ask the mod team to create another campaign or sub mod to begin around 1300 AD. Or just make one yourself - the core team for MKTW will have created all the arrtwork, units, buildings and scripts, just change the start date, startpos and TPY to suit.

[Emperor Caesar]

Apologies if this has been asked already but how will the Templars and Hospitallers be represented? I know that the Teutonic has its own faction. Will they function like in Medieval 2 where you somehow gain their support and can build one of their chapters?

[Legionair]

This is everythign I ever dreamt of. It looks like the best of Attila, Medieval II and Crusader Kings II in one.

[Taylor17]

This mod is looking greater everyday I look at the forum just waiting for something new to appear and hoping for some word on a release lol. But I was thinking about how great it would be if the team members from Medieval 2 SSHIP mod and the team members from this mod got together and put their great historical knowledge and I guess you could say there forte of historical influence that they put into their mod into this mod along with the ground breaking works of art this team is putting together it would literally be they best mod as well as game in my opinion of the total war series. I mean the amounts of detail and thought this team is putting into this mod would just be greater enhanced by the influence of historical accuracy, such as their extensive family trees with accurate names and surnames and accurate generals of the time and which and what person was married to who at the start of a campaign, to historically accurate banners and skins. It would be amazing. But then again for all I know this team could be working on all that but with so much more thought than what I'm even giving. Either way it is and will be an absolutely stunning mod great work everyone!!

[SabanSafak]

I think it might Vassals Ottoman Seljuk of rum.It has played more attractive

[FrozenmenSS]

Stop with the constant "add the Ottomans stuff" in the mod. The Ottomans are in the game as rebels.Historicaly they rose 87 years after the starting date.By that logic let's Add the Golden Horde in Russia, Bosnia, or the Armenians as playable and all rebel emergent factions.If you don't like it - as the mod team said - make a submods for it.It takes only 2 hours max for a rookie modder to do it.

[Danishmend]

The problem is not Ottomans being playable/non-playable, early Ottomans were already Seljuk-like militarywise, that part is ok, the problem is late period units. Will we have access to Turkish late period units (Janissaries, Spahis, Qapukulu, cannons & handgunners etc) while playing as Seljuk Sultanate of Rum? It will be weird and innaccurate to have access to late period units while playing as Sultanate of Rum but Attila's mechanics give us no other option it seems. Confederation system wouldn't work either because there will be no other Turkish state in Anatolia to form a confederation with a new name.

the story that Ottoams came from central asia is weak because Erutghul was born near Ahlat also he was part of Kayqubath army in Yassi Jemen battle

All the Turkish tribes in Anatolia did come from Central Asia (Transoxiana/Khoresm/Khorasan regions to be more precise). However, there were two migration waves;

The first one was led by Great Seljuks, the dynasty encouraged nomadic Turkish Oghuz tribes (aka Turkomans) in Iran to migrate westward, for it was difficult to keep them under control, there were tensions between local Iranians and nomadic Turks, these tribes were like storm clouds ready to rain. After Alp Arslan's victory at Manzikert (1071) the tribes rained upon the peninsula.

The second migration wave was triggered by Mongol Invasion in the 13th century, the Turkish Oghuz tribes of Khwarazmian Empire took refuge in Sultanate of Rum in Anatolia, it is said that the second migration was even larger than the first one, among the migrators there were even some local Iranians of Khorasan (what is now Afghanistan/East Iran).

Kayı tribe (ancestors of Ottomans) was one of those Oghuz tribes fleeing the Mongol invasion.

He was an ethnic Mongol from the Barlas tribe.

There is no much point discussing the origin of Timur (Tamerlane), after the Mongol Invasion the Uzbeks and the Kazakhs emerged as nations from an amalgam of Turkic and Mongol tribes, (Uzbeks=Karluks + Mongols, Kazakhs=Kypchaks + Mongols), many major modern Kazakh tribes were originally Mongol tribes for example (Dughlat, Jalayir, Naiman, Onggirat, Kerait etc) but they were Turkified and adopted Kipchak tongue over time. The best term to define Timur's identity is "Turko-Mongol", his tribe (Barlas) was originally Mongolian, but was Turkified over time, thus Timur's mother tongue was Turkic.

[LeicsFox]

holy moly, cracking stuff

[calgacus_1314]

Great stuff this mod been following it since the very beginning on Rome 2, quick question are we getting a preview of Scotland or Ireland anytime soon... preference being Scotland!

[Swarbs]

It will be weird and innaccurate to have access to late period units while playing as Sultanate of Rum

Why will it be weird and inaccurate? Or are you suggesting that if the Seljuks had survived beyond the 1300s, and in doing so remained in control of most of the beyliks including the Kayi, they wouldn't have developed or adopted any new technologies or weapons?

[Danishmend]

Why will it be weird and inaccurate? Or are you suggesting that if the Seljuks had survived beyond the 1300s, and in doing so remained in control of most of the beyliks including the Kayi, they wouldn't have developed or adopted any new technologies or weapons?

They definitely would have, but I haven't seen any late era unit in Sultanate of Rum thread, Ltd. says "now since the Ottomans are an emerging faction, they will be treated as a seperate faction and be dealth with later" so I thought there would be no late era unit for Sultanate of Rum, I hope Sultanate of Rum has access to late era units since there is no way to merge them with emerging Ottomans.