High Era - 1300-1492 (Historic Background Research Thread)

[Ser Gareth]

While I'm at it, the byzantines and bulgarians were also at war in 1300 (war didn't officially break out until 1302, but the byzantines and bulgarians were in perpetual conflict up until this point, 1302 was just the point of a major battle), so were the byzantines and the ottomans. The Serbians and Bulgarians should also have very low relations, as Serbia intervened and went to war with them soon after the byzantines experienced defeat. Naples should have low relations with the Byzantines. Bulgaria should also be allied with the Golden Horde, as they actually fought alongside one another in campaigns against the Byzantines. The bulgarians were actually another tributary of the mongols, and even had a mongol ruler for a short time before he was overthrown. I think it also goes without saying that the mongols and byzantines should be at war, and the mongols should also have low relations with serbia. The Georgians were a client state of the Ilkhanate at the time also (although this could be represented as an alliance). The Ilkhanate and the Ottomans should also have low relations.

[+Marius+]

To simplify things, it might be beneficial to have the Knights of St. John (Order of the Knights Hospitaller) as a faction instead of just generalizing them as crusaders. I say this because the Templars were dissolved in 1312, only 12 years after the start date (so I think it'd be unreasonable to waste unit slots on their units). Furthermore, the knights of Cyprus were really just a branch of the Hospitallers, the same being the case with the knights of Rhodes which survived them a bit longer (in fact the knights of Rhodes originated as a military expedition from Cyprus).

Firstly, the Templars were dissolved because the crusaders campaigns of 1300-1306 were not successful and the Templar's returned to France along with the Grand Master Jacques de Molay.
Meaning that at the start date the Templars are still in the Levant and the Grand Master of the Templars is still active, alive and fighting in Cilicia.

Just because something happened later, does not mean we have to implement it earlier, if they were successful, they would had stayed on Cyprus and history would be different.

Secondly, it was not the knights hospitallers on Cyprus, it was the Kingdom of Cyprus, a separate crusader kingdom under the rule of the house of Lusignan, namely Henry II, who was still king of Jerusalem.

It was not merely a knightly order that ran things as it was in later periods, is was the crusaders as we know it, there were even Teutonic knights on the island.

A possible solution to the entire Muscovy problem, seeing as how it was not quite a minor state at the time period would be to combine Novgorod and Muscovy into one faction and just call it the Russian (or Rus) Principalities.

That would be as incorrect as merging Hungary and the kingdom of Naples...actually more incorrect because at least Hungary and the kingdom of Naples had the same royal family.

There is also the fact that Moscow at least as far as I am aware managed to unite the Rus principalities peacefully against the Mongols, not by conquering them, which would be hard to represent in the game. Anyway, just my two cents on the matter.

Oh, they conquered them alright, and it took them until the 16th century...so just putting this in the 1300s is kinda overkill.

While I'm at it, the byzantines and bulgarians were also at war in 1300 (war didn't officially break out until 1302)

If war did not break out until 1302 than there should be no war in 1300.

so were the byzantines and the ottomans.

Nope, Osman was still conquering neighboring Turkish princedoms at the time.

His first engagement with the Byzantines was not until 1302;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bapheus

The Serbians and Bulgarians should also have very low relations, as Serbia intervened and went to war with them soon after the byzantines experienced defeat.

Source?
Serbia was in a state of civil war at this point.

Bulgaria should also be allied with the Golden Horde, as they actually fought alongside one another in campaigns against the Byzantines.

Nope, Nogai khan died in 1299, it was over.

The bulgarians were actually another tributary of the mongols, and even had a mongol ruler for a short time before he was overthrown.

That was a part of the civil war that was over by the point of the start date, Bulgaria no longer payed tribute to the Mongols.

I think it also goes without saying that the mongols and byzantines should be at war

Why?

and the mongols should also have low relations with serbia.

Why?
Nogai khan is dead.

The Georgians were a client state of the Ilkhanate at the time also (although this could be represented as an alliance).

Nope, the Georgian king was still fighting them actively.

[Ser Gareth]

Fair enough, if you want to keep the templar order around, that's your guys decision, I was just suggesting that the kingdom of cyprus be represented by the hospitallers as a way of clearing the edu a bit, and it's not that wrong, since the hospitallers constituted most of the fighting strength of the island, and if you are intending on giving them the isle of rhodes (which is the way it looked on the map you guys posted), which they didn't have until 1312 either, then the hospitallers would be the only order left in the levant. A further proposition would be to call them the kingdom of cyprus, which would also be more accurate than the crusader states or the kingdom of jerusalem.

With the rus principalities thing, also, it's your guys decision, it was just a suggestion. I suppose it's much more accurate for the Muscovians to be represented by rebels, and the Novgorodians to be the sole russian faction.

When I said "war didn't officially break out" what I meant was that there were no large scale campaigns up until then, the bulgarians and the byzantines were openly and actively hostile to one another by that point though, the same is the case with the ottomans and the byzantines. Just because a major battle or campaign did not occur until 1302 does not mean they were at peace.

About the Serbs and Bulgarians, I was mistaken, they did not go to war until the 1320's.

I was also wrong earlier about the dates of the mongol-bulgarian alliance, as by 1300, the mongol influence had mostly disappeared and the bulgarians were actually at war with the mongols. The mongols and the byzantines were also at peace by this point.

As for Georgia, they were a vassal of the mongols from 1238 to 1335. The georgians in fact "attended all major campaigns of the Ilkhanate and aristocrats' sons served in kheshig." Once again, feel free to correct me, I'm just trying to help correct any innacuracies.

[+Marius+]

I was just suggesting that the kingdom of cyprus be represented by the hospitallers as a way of clearing the edu a bit, and it's not that wrong, since the hospitallers constituted most of the fighting strength of the island.

Hospitallers never really did have a dominance on Cyprus but they were very influential.
The issue is that the entire Templar order was basically on the island at around 1300, so they simply have to be ingame.

and if you are intending on giving them the isle of rhodes (which is the way it looked on the map you guys posted), which they didn't have until 1312 either

Their ownership of Rhodes is not final.
It is ahistorical.

A further proposition would be to call them the kingdom of cyprus

I thought about that, but the name would become a bit of a sideline if the faction(player played or AI) expanded anywhere or even managed to reconquer the Holy Lands.

Just because a major battle or campaign did not occur until 1302 does not mean they were at peace.

Again, since there is no information on any declarations of war prior to those events, there is no way of proving that those factions were, in fact, in a state of war.
Bulgaria's entire army was conquering Wallachia at that point and Theodore Svetoslav did not turn his eyes towards the Byzantines until 1302.
In the same manner, Osman I did not attack the Byzantines until he secured the Turkish areas in Anatolia he was conquering.

As for Georgia, they were a vassal of the mongols from 1238 to 1335. The georgians in fact "attended all major campaigns of the Ilkhanate and aristocrats' sons served in kheshig." Once again, feel free to correct me, I'm just trying to help correct any innacuracies.

Georgia pulled away from vassalship numerous times and their submission was not constant in that period of time you provided.

At the scenario start date, year 1300, David VIII of Georgia was leading a successful rebellion against the Mongols.

[Ser Gareth]

Hospitallers never really did have a dominance on Cyprus but they were very influential.
The issue is that the entire Templar order was basically on the island at around 1300, so they simply have to be ingame.

They were the second largest source of military power on cyprus to the local greek militias. And just because the templars technically existed doesn't mean that it's worth representing them in game, seeing as how they never really fought again after that point, or if they did, it was only in one or two battles.

I understand the possible need for it for the sake of balance, but it is as you said ahistorical.

And it's ahistorical to name them anything other than the kingdom of cyprus. And the isle of cyprus could be the center of an empire based there, I don't understand how it's different for them than any other nation.

Again, since there is no information on any declarations of war prior to those events, there is no way of proving that those factions were, in fact, in a state of war.Bulgaria's entire army was conquering Wallachia at that point and Theodore Svetoslav did not turn his eyes towards the Byzantines until 1302.
In the same manner, Osman I did not attack the Byzantines until he secured the Turkish areas in Anatolia he was conquering.

These factions were openly hostile to each other in 1300. To say that they were at peace is misleading.

Georgia pulled away from vassalship numerous times and their submission was not constant in that period of time you provided.

At the scenario start date, year 1300, David VIII of Georgia was leading a successful rebellion against the Mongols.

Firstly, David VIII's rebellion was not successful, and the Kingdom of Georgia was not free until the year 1327. "In 1299, the Ilkhanid khan Ghazan installed him as a rival ruler to George’s elder brother, the rebellious Georgian King David VIII." So clearly, not all of Georgia was in a state of rebellion, and not all of the royal family for that matter.

[+Marius+]

And it's ahistorical to name them anything other than the kingdom of cyprus. And the isle of cyprus could be the center of an empire based there, I don't understand how it's different for them than any other nation.

Perhaps.

These factions were openly hostile to each other in 1300. To say that they were at peace is misleading.

Provide proof that they were in a state of war, because I do not see any hostilities prior to 1302.

Firstly, David VIII's rebellion was not successful

Yes it was, the Ilkhanate did not invade Georgia again until 1304, when they again failed to take the place but instead, accepted David as a sovereign ruler.

and the Kingdom of Georgia was not free until the year 1327.

Yes, but that was after the second time the Ilkhanate established dominace, after 1310.

At the mod start date, the initial rebellion was not yet suppressed.

"In 1299, the Ilkhanid khan Ghazan installed him as a rival ruler to George’s elder brother, the rebellious Georgian King David VIII." So clearly, not all of Georgia was in a state of rebellion, and not all of the royal family for that matter.

No, they installed his brother George who was 10-11 years old and a hostage at the time, but he was merely a king on paper and by declaration.
The land itself, the crown and the nobility was under David's control.

[druzhina345]

Marius,
Re. your PM request for historical illustrations and info for 1270-1330, here is what i have for the late 13th century:

Bronze Cauldron with Cavalryman, Daghestan, 13th century
Buckle with Knights from Kígyóspuszta, Hungary, 13th century
Book of Fixed Stars by al Sufi, 1260-80AD, Maragha?, Northwestern Iran, British Library MS. Or.5323
Brocardus de Charpignie, a Flemish knight, Larnaca, Cyprus, 1270AD
Ayyubid or Mamluk inlaid metal bowl, 3rd qtr. 13th century AD, Staatliche Museen, Berlin
Italian infantry portrayed in Christ Crucified by Guido Da Siena, 1270s
English Knights in St John's College Psalter K.26, c.1270-80
Relief of the Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus, Amiens, France, 1264–88AD
Seal of John de Montfort, Crusader lord of Tyre and Toron (1270-1283), Outremer
Topographia Hibernica (Topography of Ireland) by Giraldus Cambrensis in Bodleian Library Ms. Laud. Misc. 720
Tomb of a knight wearing plastron de fer, in Pershore Abbey, c.1280
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, Saint-Jean-d'Acre, Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, 1280AD, Saltykov-Shchredin Ms. Fr. fol.v.IV.5, St Petersburg
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, Saint-Jean-d'Acre, Lyon - Bibliothèque Municipale - Ms 828, c1280AD
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, called the Lyon Eracles, Lyon, 1280AD, Bibliothèque de la Ville - Ms P.A. 29
Ayyubid Hunter on an Incense-burner or Hand-warmer, 3rd quarter of 13th Century
The Book of Horsemanship and Ingenious War Devices, by Hassan Al-Rammah, c. 1280.
Effigy of Bjorn Finsson, Trondheim Cathedral, Trondheim, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway, 1280
Welsh infantry in Littere Wallie in Chapter House Liber A
Spanish, Andalusians & Moors in Las Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X, c1284
L'Estoire de Merlin by Robert de Borron. BnF MS Français 95, Northern France, c.1280-1290
French Crossbowman in Pierpont Morgan Library. Manuscript. M.969, fol. 150r, northeastern France, last quarter of 13th century
Cilician Armenian Lectionary, Matenadaran Collection MS979, 1286AD
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre - Boulogne-sur-mer BM - Ms 142, made c.1287
Navarre Picture Bible of King Sancho, Pamplona, Spain, 1197AD, Bibliothèque d'Amiens Métropole MS.108
Spanish & Moors in the murals de la conquesta de Mallorca 1285-1290
Spanish soldiers from the army of King James I in a mural from the Tinell Hall at the Palau Reial Major
Tournament scenes, fresco in the Palazzo Comunale di San Gimignano, attributed to Azzo di Masetto, Tuscany, Italy, 1288-1292
Guillaume de Durford at Santissima Annunziata Church, Florence, c.1289
Tile with Saljuq horsemen, c.1290AD, Kashan, Iran, Museo Nazionale d'Arte Orientale, Rome
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, Saint-Jean-d'Acre, Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, late 13th century, BnF MS Français 9084
Negroes & armoured Mamluk or Ilkhanid cavalry in Kitāb al-mawālīd (Book of nativities), attributed to Abu Abu Ma‛schar, late 13th century
A man-at-arms on the late 13th century Seal of the Guild of St George of Ferrara.
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre - Walters Art Museum Ms. W.137, from Picardy, 1295-1300
Statue of Saint Maurice, Magdeburg Cathedral, Germany, late 13th century
'Massacre of the Innocents', Dädesjö Church ceiling paintings, Småland, Sweden, late 13th century
The Florentine Army, c.1260-1325 by Guy Halsall
Gran Conquista de Ultramar, Spain, 1291 - 1295
Castigos (punishment) de Sanchos IV, Spain, 14th century
Mural of Saint Mercurius (as a Byzantine or Serbian Soldier) in Ohrid, Macedonia, c.1295AD
Effigy of Robert de Roos (d.1227), in Temple Church, London, England, late 13th/early 14th centuries
Ceiling panel with a knight of the House of Anjou struck down by another knight, c.1300, Spain
Ceiling panel with a fight between a Christian knight and a Muslim, Spain, c.1300
Sleeping Guards at the Sepulchre in coat-of-plates, c.1300, Constance Cathedral
St Maurice as a Knight on a Reliquary, Lögon Monastery, Denmark, c.1300
'Book of Fixed Stars', by al Sufi, Cairo, 1300AD.
Illustrations from the First Small Shahnama, c.1300 showing Ilkhanid Mongols
Mamluk Polo Rider Flask, c.1300AD, Museum für Islamische Kunst der Staatlichen, Berlin
A Mongolic Horse Archer on the Surp Haç Church of the Holy Cross, Aktamar Island, Van Province, Turkey
Inlaid bronze bowl, late 13th or early 14th centuries AD, Mamluk, Victoria and Albert Museum 740-1898
Plaster Relief of Seljuq Cavalry Fighting a Dragon & a Lion, Anatolia, 13th-14th centuries, Museum of Turkish and Islamic Arts, Sultanahmet
Archer Figure, Inland Niger Delta, Mali, Africa, 13th-15th century, Smithsonian
Arabs in the Maqamat of al-Hariri, Syria, late 13th-century, British Library Ms. Or. 9718


Some have links to article extracts by Ian Heath etc.

Early 14th century to follow later.

Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[druzhina345]

Early 14th Century Illustrations
Goliath as a French Knight, Bible, Thott Ms.7, Konegelige Bibliotek, Copenhagen, c.1300
Mamluk cavalry on a pen box by Ahmad al Dhaki, Egypt or Syria, 1304
Ilkhanid Mongols in the 1305-14 Jami' al-Tawarikh (Compendium of Chronicles) by Rashid al-Din.
Queen Mary Psalter, England, 1310-12
Armenian translation of Pseudo-Callisthenes’ History of Alexander the Great, c.1300-1325AD by the scribe Nerses.
Kitab fi marifat al-hiyal al-handasiyya by al-Jazari. Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices, Syria or Egypt, 1315
Scots on the Charter from Edward II to the city of Carlisle, 1316AD
Effigy of Nils Jonsson, St Mary's Church, Sigtuna, Uppland, Sweden, 1316
A knight and a Granadian fight in the Usatages of Berenguer I, Spain
Tab from a Mamluk banner with linked crosses and pear-shaped medallion
Angevine Hungarians in the Provostal Church in Spišska Kapitula (Szepeshely), Slovakia, 1317AD
Early 14th century Mameluke costume in Kalila and Dimna
Icon of Saint Demetrios, Byzantine, Louvre, early 14th Century
14th Century Illustrations of Flemish Costume & Soldiers on The Courtrai Chest (Kist van Kortrijk)
Illustrations of 14th century Flemish Militia from the Leugemeete Frescos
Italian City Militia on the Codex Manesse, 1305-1340
Swedish Knights on wall paintings from the Church at Södra Råda in Sweden, 1323AD
The Diez Album, an early 14th century Ilkhanid copy of Jami' al-Tawarikh by Rashid al-Din
Hardenberg's Codex of King Magnus the Law-Mender's Law, Norway, early 14th century
Paintings of Italian Soldiers of the early 14th Century
The wall paintings of El Partal, Alhambra, Spain, early 14th Century. Also known as the Torre de las Damas
A Brass of an English Knight in Trumpington Church, England
English Knights and Infantry in Battle, Holkham Picture Bible, 1326-27AD, British Library MS Add. 47682, folio 40r
Scenes from the Life of Saint Olaf, Altar, Nidaros Cathedral, Trondheim, Norway, first half of the 14th century
Drawings of an Irish cavalryman from the Magauran Duanaire, 14th century
Ilkhanid Mongols in the c.1330 Kitab-i Samak 'Ayyar (part 3) by Ibn Abi al-Qasim Sharazi, Sadaqah.
Mural with a scene of the Martyrdom of St Thomas Becket, St Peter ad Vincula Church, South Newington, England, c.1330AD
Mamluks on the Baptistère de Saint Louis, 1320–40
The Anjou Legendarium by the Hungarian Master. 1325-1335, Morgan Library & Museum.

Druzhina345
14th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[paleologos]

Good sources, thanks mate!

[+Marius+]

Many thanks for the imagery druzhina

I was away these couple weeks and could not reply sooner.

[Mamlaz]

Updated the map;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This seems like a very interesting scenario.

I hope it is revived.

[banskie100]

Is this still alive?

[paleologos]

The mod is alive, the research is welcome but I doubt that we will be able to have separate campaigns for high or late era.

[Melooo182]

News of progress!

The campaign map is finished and old original SS factions have their army rosters for 1300-1492 fully working, meaning we have a "playable" 1300 campaign, however... Serbian, Bulgarian and Georgian army rosters are still less than 10% done, haven't finished with family trees and starting characters lineups aaaand the dreaded campaign script is not done yet, don't worry it won't be much different from the 1100/1139 campaigns scripts, so most of the work will be copy-paste, change names and coords but still that takes time.

So what's great about all that?
We're getting closer to a release
When?
Sometime around this month or the next

[paleologos]

That's good news I say!

[Mamlaz]

Hellz yeah!

Can't wait.

The faction map alone makes me giddy, let alone the thought of a renaissance total war on a grand campaign scale.

Two standing Mongol factions, pikes, gunpowder arms race, armies and fortifications already largely developed etc.

This will be completely unique as far as the M2TW experience goes.

[jurcek1987]

Looking forward to this

[Mamlaz]

Are Timurids confirmed as faction in this?

[Melooo182]

The Ilkhanate takes it's place and is available from the campaign start

Both the Mongols and Ilkhanate will be horde factions so even loosing all their settlements won't destroy them
I'm pondering the idea of leaving some of the timurid invasion script as a fresh new wave of "Ilkhanate reinforcements" if they get too weakened before 1400

[Mamlaz]

Huh, why not replace Serbia with a full fledged Timurid faction?

As you said, Serbia is only 10% done.