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Thread: Warhammer needs to have the elements of what made Total War great!

  1. #1
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Warhammer needs to have the elements of what made Total War great!

    Hi guys, these are my thoughts and collections of what Warhammer should come out like in early 2016. Bear in mind this will be a long read.

    Warhammer Total War, if it is to be successful as a great game must not suffer from two things; firstly it has to have all the small things that made Total War great. Rome 2 didn't have it, and Warhammer will need it. Much of what you advertise must be true to the game's setting and not 'pre alpha'. We need honest marketing, not cinematic that we will never get. In Shogun 2, we never got the green crystal water setting that you showed in the trailers.

    But enough haggling, we will deal with five topics:

    1) The Campaign - immersion, storyline, events, dilemas, diplomacy.
    2) The Battles - immersion, music, soundtrack, fighting effects.
    3) The Camera settings - must be really indepth/
    4) The Factions Rosters - how much detail is being put into them.

    The Campaign:

    Honestly a campaign setting for a fantasy total war game was always going to come. Third Age Total War and Call of Warhammer(both excellent mods) gave the sort of immersion needed for a fantasy setting. I'm not too experienced with the Warhammer lore, but I kinda bits of it. But the campaign has to make the player involved and be immersed. In Rome Total War this was captured perfectly, if you played the barbarians, you knew you were fighting against Rome and the Greeks, if you played Parthia, your goal was to establish a powerful resurgent Persian Empire. If you played Macedon, you know you were going to restore Macedon's glory and establish a new glorious empire, or if you played the Selecuids, you were essentially aiming to keep this empire expanding. Now Warhammer should introduce elements of the fantasy genre; if I play the Empire, I know I'm fighting for survival and expansion, I know regions in the Empire need to be developed. If I play the Dwarves(DU bekaaar!!!!!), I know I'm building gold mines, leading my dwarven armies against the orcs that threaten to extinguish(and lets be honest, the whole Dwarves vs Orcs came from LOTR, the whole banner of the fantasy genre, it started it all with the movies.) I want to fight a situation where the orcs invade my lands, and like Thorin Oakenshield, '' We are the dwarves of Erebor, and we fight to reclaim our homeland!''. We fight for the good of humanity, etc. What I'm saying is that the campaign has to get that fantasy feeling in these four factions you make.

    Secondly, the campaign really musn't be this:

    Although it looks great, it really lacks a lot of features such as:

    1) The city map shown does not reflect the actual size of the settlement.
    2) There is no events or dilemmas captured to make the player feel like he is in the ancient world.
    3) There is no events displaying of how gladiators are causing riots, no stories.
    4) Its just this; a city, raise a army and conquer. With Warhammer, you guys can change this and make it something more like this:
    5) The terrain is meh. Not a lot of variation either.

    It should look more like this:

    Do you see how such a improvement is made? Its a ten year old game and it still looks smashing. Notice, you guys really need to improve the UI. No more transparent UI. Notice the Dwarven UI and you will see a lot of unique graphic images that are important for playing the Dwarves.

    1) The castle looks awesome and does reflect the actual size of the settlement, there is also a ability to add in as many settlements.
    2) The terrain is better improved, and look at the fantastic Shogun 2 terrain that you made by adding in trees, mountains, waterfalls, bridges. That is what makes the campaign map of Shogun 2 the best looking and you can certainly make it with this one.
    3) Below is what a region of the Empire and the settlement should look like:

    One of the things that the Third Age Total War mod managed to achieve was by adding in messages and events that really put the player into Middle Earth. Movie clips of LOTR, moving into Gondor, etc. This was from the fellowship campaign, but if you want the player to build his story on Warhammer, than add in intros, cinematics that tells the player ok this is what is happening, etc.

    An example:

    When we observe the second image below, if you're playing as the Empire, this sort of event could come up with an awesome graphic drawing saying, Paving the way into Greenskins...etc.

    Events such as reuniting factions, emerging factions, rebel factions could have a cool intro cinematic and have a good description message:

    I mean, this sort of stuff are small things when making the campaign map. Its little things like this that make Total War a grand experience. I mean you don't give a empty map and say do what you want, its boring. Give us a map that can look awesome, make us immersed and make us manage our empires. The Campaign map has to make us involved.

    I would love to see Battle Deployment Screens from Med 2 to have a return. They look so much better this way:

    An epic battle image, combined with images like this will make Warhammer a really good game to play.

    These are examples that you can learn and take from.

    When entering into the main menu screen, the factions must have detailed faction descriptions. You did this excellently in Empire, Napoleon, Rome total war and Shogun 2. Rome 2 by far had the most shortest descriptions ever.

    This is what entering the campaign screen must feel like( and the menu screen must have awesome artwork).

    One thing I feel that has been missing from Shogun 2 is the faction intros. I mean they really add such an immerse feeling to the game. Rome Total War intros were by far the most unique and they really had epic soundtracks. Attila's intros were much needed, but needed more content in them. Please make really good faction intros and I cannot stress, if I play the Empire and there's no faction intro, then what is the point in playing them? The Dwarves have to have an epic faction intro which introduces us in the World of Warhammer lore. There's plenty of ways you guys can add this now its not a historical setting, utilize the campaign map for the player!!!

    Settlements and descriptions with detail must make a return:

    I hope you guys make a really good campaign, and make this an epic total war campaign to be made. This can be really a good game. But the campaign map, please don't strip any features off. I want cinematic, I want story, I want all the stuff that fantasy is good for and I want it added in! These features need to come in. And if you put agents in, they need to feel like agents. I don't want too many roles for one thing.

    How to improve diplomacy:

    Diplomacy is always in need of improving, so I suggest the following:

    Trade Agreement
    Enter into Alliance
    Break Alliance
    Non Aggression Pact
    The Declaration of the Peace Treaty
    Join War
    Break War
    Stop trade.

    This is usually what its made off, but diplomacy can be really made interesting if one could change it to make it more relevant to the Warhammer Lore:

    So to give you an example:

    The Empire engages diplomatic negotiations with the Dwarves:

    The Emperor( this would be his speech):

    Greetings, Dwarves of the Iron Hills, I come in peace and wish to enter an alliance to defeat the evil that threatens to stampede on our lands. I, as Karl Franz, swear my loyalty to this alliance. Even they threaten your lands. How can you stand aside?

    The King of the Dwarves:

    Emperor Karl Franz, we greet you and we thank you for your hospitality. Let us get to the matter; we dwarves have fought the Greenskins many a times, and it is not easy as to defeat them. Our brethen lie stained, laying in the battlefield while those Greenskins merry in their delight. What they do not know, is that Dwarves are resilient. We do fight to the last. The humans last time almost left the battlefield when we fought. But you are a good man, and so I shall join you, but what do you wish?

    And now here's some of the improved suggestions:

    Trade Agreement (Probability, High)
    Enter Alliance ( Probability, High)
    Enter into a Coalition - this features allows you to combine both Dwarven and Empire Armies together in order to defeat the Greenskins (Probability, moderate)
    Engaging in Quests - Find the Lost Temple of Sigmar - this feature allows you to send your lords or heros in personal scripted missions or stories or cinematic that emerge as you play the campaign and will influence the way you play your campaign.(Probability, moderate), this would be an excellent feature to allow you to improve relations with your factions. I call this engaging in quests. Engaging in quests with a Dwarven faction will improve more chances of being allies. Engaging in quests with say the Elves will be difficult, or the Greenskins will be none.
    Meet at the High Council - this feature puts back the throne room from Shogun 1 and allows you to consult your lords and hears for what you wish to do and whether you should engage an alliance with the Dwarves. All factions will have access to this feature.
    Request to join armies - this means that if you are in alliance with Bretonnia or the Dwarves, and you are fighting against an enemy, you can use your generals to engage in diplomacy with other generals and ask for whole armies to joinyou or a few units.
    Signing a Peace Declaration - a fancy way of saying peace.
    Building the magic walls - this feature will allow walls to be constructed by hearos, when an agreement is signed between the two factions to build a non aggression pact. Its a visual and battle playing feature. Think of Hadrain's Wall, but imagine a Hero flashing his wand around and building the wall.
    Expand cities - this features allows you to conjoin two cities if they're expanding and they're based near a resource; such as gold or iron. For example, your richest province which will be a stonewalled city( I don't know how to describe how the Rome 2 city disappears and reappears when building a new thing), and a small village. What this feature will is by expanding it, it will conjoin the village and transform into it being part of the city. So you can get a humongous expansionist city which will reflect the size of the settlement, but this is for defensive and military purposes only. This can be done in diplomacy through combining a Dwarven city with a Empire city - which gives you access to Dwarven Units and special abilities.
    Join Wars
    Break Alliances with etc.
    Give Regions - these feature is a must and has to be put in.
    Requesting to join your quest - the Elves can also engage and ask to engage in your quest, albeit for more personal reasons rather than complete the quest. They would look for claiming credit. Other factions can do this as well.
    A shipment of Bombardment - this feature entails giving your ally two armies in return for an whole array of resources, ships and armies full of powerful artillery. It is only a extreme step needed in times of war.
    Send the Prime Minister to consolidate your negotiation. The Prime Minister is like a Lord or Hero, that can be used to make things go your way if you feel diplomacy is not working for you. He is a bureaucrat and can get things done more easily.
    Enter into Secret Negotiation - if you feel you're preparing for war, the Dwarves for example may talk to you and request the following:
    Enter into trade deals between cities
    Enter into alliances with the neighbouring city states.
    Enter into deals with military alliances, and swap military technology
    This feature would be all under one banner, so its like this:
    The Dwarves request that you enter secret negotiation, and then a list of these features will come up. They're a completely separate feature in the diplomacy screen and they are hidden.
    Give Gold in order to improve relations - you can give special magic jewels - such as the Jewels of Sankara which gives immortality status to your Emperor. You can swap magic technology and negotiate it. It would be a really cool feature - because without these features, your armies won't have much of a chance in battle, etc.
    Send Merchants on legendary quests - you can send your merchants on quests through deserts to find jewels and treasure with a segment of your guard into your allies lands if they agree to find it.
    Blockade feature - if you have an enemy, you can select the blockade feature, when you were previously trading, and you can click which areas of blockade you wish.

    So Blockade:

    Import of Magic jewels
    Import of Gold
    Import of Weapons
    Import of trade coming from previous enemy docks.

    So now not only can you blockade like you did before, you can do it on the campaign map, and any materials you find to blockade their supplies, you can add this in. Its useful if you're fightng a war that's struggling to come to a conclusion.

    And so and so forth. This is how DIPLOMACY SHOULD BE ^^^^. I don't know the warhammer setting too well, but I just used my imagination and added some story in it.

    If you're gonna add Dwarves, please make sure they look good:

    THAT IS HOW they should LOOK.

    Part II coming up.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; August 06, 2015 at 10:59 AM.

  2. #2
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Warhammer needs to have the elements of what made Total War great!

    Part II - Battles
    Part III - Camera
    Part IV - Faction Rosters and summary.

  3. #3
    Greve Af Göteborg's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Warhammer needs to have the elements of what made Total War great!

    I like where this is going.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Warhammer needs to have the elements of what made Total War great!


    Fix the AI CA. Make it good. Please....

    Shameless self promotion for my LP channel

  5. #5
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Warhammer needs to have the elements of what made Total War great!

    The SEIGE AI especially.
    SEMPER FIDELIS Remember Constantinople Κωνσταντινούπολη

  6. #6

    Default Re: Warhammer needs to have the elements of what made Total War great!

    A word of advice. If you want to get your complex of ideas across, order them in such a way that they are navigable and appealing to read. I'm sorry to say this, but right now it just looks like a run on bunch of sentences that go all over the place without a structure. This will turn off many readers, let alone the occasional CA dev that glances on this forum. Please, organize your post, cut off unnecessary text, list clearly and briefly the features that you'd like to see, and put the pictures in a spoiler so they don't take up 3/4 of your post space.

    At the end of the day remember that we all have a unique, independent view of what we want from a TW game. Some features you find essential, would put off some other gamers. Some want more realism in TW games (longer battles, attrition, logistics, politics, deep character development etc), others want more competitive based fun (special effects, animations, monsters, magic, Diablo skill trees etc). Some, such as myself, view the universe of Warhammer as a sort of Boschian rendition of European Renaissance baroque culture. Others view it as a complete fantasy universe utterly divorced from any real life influences. Trying to weigh one opinion against another is a difficult task, so if you want to be heard, you have to put effort in your persuasion abilities in order to reverse what could be possibly a completely contrary opinion.

    For example I recently started a thread where I urged CA devs to return to the Med II building system. But I was surprised to learn that many players actually hated this feature. I felt that ultimately speaking, I would get nowhere when there were so many contrasting opinions on this point, so I dropped pressing the argument. I'm almost half-expecting CA to not listen to anything we say here and just issue a huge Attila/Rome II overhaul mod with Warhammer skins.
    Last edited by Carl Jung was right; August 08, 2015 at 05:40 AM.

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