Imperial helmets

[scoicarius]

I think this picture is great (I don't know where it's from):



This part is especially noteworthy:

It is not uncommon for warriors of the Empire to carry periapts, talismans, charms and other symbolic ornaments. These are believed to bestow divine protection on the warrior wearing them.

This is a detail I'd really like to see on most Empire soldiers. I find this one of the most important details to make them feel distinctly Warhammer.

Basically I think they need to get all these right (for any unit):

• armor/outfit/weapon design
  
• armor/outfit/weapon ornaments (e.g. Empire symbols)
• symbolic ornaments (talismans, trophies, etc.)

[Orkfaeller]

I think this picture is great (I don't know where it's from):

Empire Armybook 6th edition.

[Sharpe]

Dat Knight tho

[Orkfaeller]

Dat Knight tho

Empire Knights are pretty legit.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Zephyrus]

I see your empire knights, and raise you stormvermin.

[MissRarity]

Empire Knights are pretty legit.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Not as legit as Bretonnian

[Dalakh]

snip

[Orkfaeller]

T'was changed from 7th to 8th edition.

"Outriders are grim men who are both the commanders and drill instructors of the Pistolkorps. Outriders are rarely noblemen, but rather they are veterans elevated from the ranks of the state regiments, sergeants and officers who show an affinity for horsemanship and a talent for training new recruits."

"Outriders typically wear ornate armour, for noblemen pay well for their sons to learn the art of war."

"Outriders also form into seperate regiments, sometimes to show their charges exactly how it's done, but also to display their own martial discipline to any noblemen in the army that might be looking for an experienced instructor to tutor their sons."

[Manu La Canette]

I see where you were coming from, though I'm pretty sure pistoliers are almost direct copies of Deutsche Reiter / Schwarze Reiter / Reiters.

But I'm not enough of a specialist to actually tell you what these helmets / armours are called.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Those are half-armours and the helmets are Burgonet / Savoyard types, in their "open" versions. There are also types of these with closed on the face to give further protection, historically.

Now about this whole matter, clearly, they have rush the whole Empire infantry models. The big creatures and the Green-Skins are pretty well documented, they obviously copied what they saw in the books, but then why don't they do the same for Empire? The Reiksguard is wrong, the Infantrymen look like Spanish soldiers from mid-17th century, not like Germans from early 16th c.!!
The imperial gunners are also completely wrong, the matchlocks don't look like the big stocky Handbüchsen (arquebuse) from the models or the historical ones Warhammer has been based on. CA's fire arms right now look like Pennsylvanian long rifles with flintlock mechanism... almost a gap of 200 years... and beside another flaw in the true representation of GW models. I won't even talk about the Pistoliers, represented with a matchlock instead of the dual pistols from GW models.
They gotta fix all of this to me...

These are the late 15th-early 16th century German handbüchsen:



I worked upon early firearms in the German world back at university. Germans were ahead on these back in that time (late 15th c.), especially the "small" portative firearms, called "Handbüchsen". As you can see, GW obviously took inspiration on it, and they don't look like CA's current long and thin flintlocks models AT ALL.

I'll also share my knowledge about cannons and source of inspiration. I highly think that GW took inspiration on the city of Strassburg for the story of the giant cannon of Middenheim. Strassburg (I live there, in Elsass, now eastern France) had two big cannons in the late 15th c. At these times, big cannons made the big kingdoms or guaranteed the freedom of others, even in few number or single. The citizens were proud of their cannons defending their independance. Strassburg remained an Imperial free-city because of them. The bigger cannon of the two was named Meise or Meiselocker (after the bird called "tit" in English because of the whistling sound of the round shots when firing, like the song of a bird). It took an impressive carriage to move it and the cannon was known and feared Empire-wide.
This historical motto is from the actual period: "Nürnberg Witz, Venetianer Geld, Strassburger Geschitz regieren die Welt", which means "the spirit of Nürnberg, the Venetian gold and the cannon of Strassburg rule the world".

[scoicarius]

T'was changed from 7th to 8th edition.

"Outriders are grim men who are both the commanders and drill instructors of the Pistolkorps. Outriders are rarely noblemen, but rather they are veterans elevated from the ranks of the state regiments, sergeants and officers who show an affinity for horsemanship and a talent for training new recruits."

"Outriders typically wear ornate armour, for noblemen pay well for their sons to learn the art of war."

"Outriders also form into seperate regiments, sometimes to show their charges exactly how it's done, but also to display their own martial discipline to any noblemen in the army that might be looking for an experienced instructor to tutor their sons."

Were it for me, I wouldn't focus only on one edition, but look at all editions and bring back those things that were well designed.

E.g. Empire War Wagons

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's fascinating to see how the factions have changed over time. This is a post with the changes to the Empire roster from the 3rd to the 7th edition: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/430...rd-7th-edition

I am going to do something like this for all factions.

[Orkfaeller]

Now about this whole matter, clearly, they have rush the whole Empire infantry models. The big creatures and the Green-Skins are pretty well documented, they obviously copied what they saw in the books, but then why don't they do the same for Empire?

I don't know. As someone who collected Green Skins I noticed plenty of differences between the GW's and CA's designs; lots of things I'm not happy with; like CA didn't use a single pre- existing design for any of the orc or black orc helmets I belive;
but I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.
_

What I did notice / believe to be true is that CA made sure the big, impressive monstrous creatures and warmachines all look as close as possible to GW's original designs.

But the smaller units, the regular infantry and cavalry, differ so heavily from GW's designs and I really can't tell whats the reason.

With some units it feels like they intentionally redesigned every bit of gear. Like they refused to reuse any of the designs on GW's miniatures or artworks.

I don't know if they suffer from lack of time / resources and thus didn't do enough research; though you would think it would be quicker / cheaper to simple copy GW's designs instead of redesigning half of the stuff.

Or, did they outsource some of the 3D work to another studio and both teams are working under different leads resulting in different art direction?

Does someone over at CA think GW's design are "uncool" and/or not marketable and thus they feel the need to change them?

Did they not get the rights to certain designs from GW?

Is no one in CA's art team familiar with Warhammer or dont they care?

Or are we really presented a ton of WiP and placeholder assets?

I'm trying to come up with an explanation but I can't think of anything that makes sense.

I won't even talk about the Pistoliers, represented with a matchlock instead of the dual pistols from GW models.

I think you're confusing Pistoliers with Outriders there, unless you noticed something in the trailer that I didn't

[Orkfaeller]

Empire War Wagons

War Wagons are one of my favourite Empire Units, though they were before my time, got removed before I started collecting.

Would love to see this thing make a return so much, but I think its too obscure for CA.

[Manu La Canette]

you're right, didn't distinguish the two units on the trailer, and I'm not familiar with the English names of the units.

Weird thing is that they did the Handbüchsen right for the Outriders, and wrong for the foot gunners...

[Orkfaeller]

eird thing is that they did the Handbüchsen right for the Outriders, and wrong for the foot gunners...

Repeater handguns.

Rewatched the Black Fire Pass gameplay a million times but I can't actually tell if the barrels actually rotate. I'd hope so, but it doesn't look like it; might be wrong though.

Gameplaywise they don't seem any different from regular handguns so far; I hope in the finished game they actually rapid fire ( with a long reload ) to make them stand out more against handguns and pistols.

_


https://youtu.be/M-DjhFI7xIU?t=2m20s

[scoicarius]

War Wagons are one of my favourite Empire Units, though they were before my time, got removed before I started collecting.

Would love to see this thing make a return so much, but I think its too obscure for CA.

So would I. But I expect CA to have a narrow vision and only use the 8th edition as a reference.

I don't know. As someone who collected Green Skins I noticed plenty of differences between the GW's and CA's designs; lots of things I'm not happy with; like CA didn't use a single pre- existing design for any of the orc or black orc helmets I belive;
but I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

That's a great idea for a thread: differences between the official designs and the CA designs (ideally with screenshots). I'd create it myself, but I'm not as knowledgeable as you are.

What I did notice / believe to be true is that CA made sure the big, impressive monstrous creatures and warmachines all look as close as possible to GW's original designs.

But the smaller units, the regular infantry and cavalry, differ so heavily from GW's designs and I really can't tell whats the reason.

With some units it feels like they intentionally redesigned every bit of gear. Like they refused to reuse any of the designs on GW's miniatures or artworks.

I don't know if they suffer from lack of time / resources and thus didn't do enough research; though you would think it would be quicker / cheaper to simple copy GW's designs instead of redesigning half of the stuff.

Or, did they outsource some of the 3D work to another studio and both teams are working under different leads resulting in different art direction?

Does someone over at CA think GW's design are "uncool" and/or not marketable and thus they feel the need to change them?

Did they not get the rights to certain designs from GW?

Is no one in CA's art team familiar with Warhammer or dont they care?

Or are we really presented a ton of WiP and placeholder assets?

I'm trying to come up with an explanation but I can't think of anything that makes sense.

I'm guessing it's this one:

Is no one in CA's art team familiar with Warhammer or dont they care?

for some of them at least, and a bit of this:

Or are we really presented a ton of WiP and placeholder assets?

[Vardeus]

Empire Knights are pretty legit.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Don't post porn please! Dem sexy knights...

[Sharpe]

They are actually really cool looking.

[Manu La Canette]

can't stop thinking about this when I see the in-game banners:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[You_Guess_Who]

My, my, this have grown into quite the "wrong sandals" thread - but then I agree, what CA has done at Blackfire lacks style.

[Collateral_dmg]

I don't know. As someone who collected Green Skins I noticed plenty of differences between the GW's and CA's designs; lots of things I'm not happy with; like CA didn't use a single pre- existing design for any of the orc or black orc helmets I belive;

Well I guess you didn't pay a lot of attention to your greenskins Because they have used some of the helmets and armour (or better, most). One helmet on the black orcs is not an official one (the one with the horns like a viking, the entire last row uses that helmet, unfortunately ). The rest of the helmets are all 'official' GW. There is an Invader helmet (the one with 6 horns on the sides), and the Sentinel helmet (the one that looks like a bulls head, the guy behind grimgor wears it). This is how these helmets were called in WAR, so I use those names to make a distinction. The helmet in the second row on the far left is also an official one. I would just like to see more variety with black orc helmets, I don't have anything against the new helmet, but it's too common. Black orcs are known for their personal and special armour (that looks freaking awesome). Their armour on the other hand, I can't really tell. But I am sure they are not using the official shoulder guards, which is actually good, as the official ones are too bland. Their hand and feet armour apears to be the same, and also not official. The Immortalz might be a unique unit, so their armour might be different, we will just have to wait and see I guess.

On the orcs now. There are two non-official helmets. One is a mohawk-style, which I don't really like, and the other one is a viking type. The other three heads are official. The armour and weapons are official, except the shoulder guards and shields (but there is really nothing official for the shields when it comes to orcs). I am glad they added those shoulder guards. It seems that there are only two different shields and weapons, which is a bit dissapointing, and three body types.

The two warbosses have different shields and weapons, but they seem to have the same armour.

It's interesting how no one is complaining about the orcs, but I guess that's kind of understandable.

So there it is, all I noticed on the orcs. I generally like them, but more variety would not be too bad.