Ancient Empires: Divide et Impera - Upd. 2/13/2016

[Struthius Elixus]

Germanic Tribesman stats seems wrong.

[Maetharin]

The more I know about ancient history, the less confident I am to say anything certain like this. I would have shared your assumption about the phalanx at one point, but looking at some battles, it doesn't hold up.

I absolutely concur that nothing in History is certain, the first thing my university professor taught us was that there are many histories but just one past^^

I´m sorry if I sounded cocksure, I just wanted to share my thoughts and ideas, which in turn were based on my knowledge in the field^^

Pyrrhus in Italy seemed to mix his pike in with Italian native forces. Literally just alternated them. At the Battle of Sellasia in 222BC, Philip used a mixed force of Illyrians and bronze shields in a phalanx (most likely - we can't say this with certainty) to attack an enemy position on a hill. The bronze shields forced the enemy back and the Illyrians occupied it. His other phalanx was deployed on his other wing in a double line.

Thx for the info on Philip´s bronce shields, but I never read any details about how pyrrhus alternated his Phalanxes with Native Italian units, only that the did it...

Never a word about how big "units" were or how they actually fought, only how Pyrrhus won once through his elephants,
once through his cavalry and once fought inconclusive even though he had numerical superiority...

Best regards

[Vardano]

Guys, I don't want to sound rude by any means or show any disrespect to your work, but why would you spend your time on this submod when you could use your time and work on a AE mod which so many people are eagerly awaiting?

[Jin-]

Arab tribes cannot recruit units because they have wrong culture (Eastern) while their area culture is Arabian and Arabian tribes

Nabatea and Saba

Btw, i respect what you guys are doing. Keep up the nice work.

[FlashHeart07]

Guys, I don't want to sound rude by any means or show any disrespect to your work, but why would you spend your time on this submod when you could use your time and work on a AE mod which so many people are eagerly awaiting?

As far as I know. They are. As I understand this deal between DeI and AE is that they have acces to DeI stuff to use in Attila where they are creating their very own mod. So they are actually spending time bringing AE to both R2 and Attila.

[Sheridan]

Guys, I don't want to sound rude by any means or show any disrespect to your work, but why would you spend your time on this submod when you could use your time and work on a AE mod which so many people are eagerly awaiting?

It's fine. The project originally took off for Rome II, before Attila was released. After an unequivocal vote to shift over to Attila due to the superior campaign mechanics, that became the new course. However, we kept plans on releasing it for Rome II as well, and with the collaboration with the DeI team and their generosity of sharing resources (which we can use in Attila), it was made possible in a relatively swift manner. Most of the work we produce - not all - can and will be used for both games, although this Rome II mod will rely largely on DeI's work.

Our team is large enough at this point that we're able to divert manpower on both sides of the project (right now primarily for patching and ironing out immediate issues here, which doesn't necessarily benefit the Attila mod directly but can help to make the release smoother there). Rest assured that there is plenty of content that has not yet been shown to the public. The preview threads can be a bit deceptive, because they rarely include the same quantities as there really is produced, behind the scenes. This is true for other mods as well.

[Vardano]

I'm glad you have big enough team to handle both projects. Idea of partnership with DEI team is great. AE mod is something a lot of people are awaiting, so of course I want to see it sooner. It's sounds like it can be something really big. Thank you for your dedication and best of luck!

[ABH2]

Thx for the info on Philip´s bronce shields, but I never read any details about how pyrrhus alternated his Phalanxes with Native Italian units, only that the did it...

Never a word about how big "units" were or how they actually fought, only how Pyrrhus won once through his elephants,
once through his cavalry and once fought inconclusive even though he had numerical superiority...

Yea, Polybius covers this aspect when going over the strengths of the phalanx versus the legion:
"Pyrrhus, again, availed himself not only of the arms, but also of the troops of Italy, placing a maniple of Italians and a company of his own phalanx alternately, in his battles against the Romans. Yet even this did not enable him to win; the battles were somehow or another always indecisive."

Guys, I don't want to sound rude by any means or show any disrespect to your work, but why would you spend your time on this submod when you could use your time and work on a AE mod which so many people are eagerly awaiting?

It is very easy for people not familiar with our project from its start to suggest this, but to go a bit further than Philip - there is a core group of us who put a lot of time into modding Rome 2, and it's tough to just to toss that work aside even if some is relevant to Attila. There are also advantages to Rome 2 still such as the campaign maps/scenarios that we don't yet have in Attila (though we do now have a nice map with The Last Roman - hopefully CA gives us some more). Parts of Attila's map are still barren and neglected like Greece which was already poorly represented in Rome 2.

[Maetharin]

Hmm, but Polybios lived decades after that, how reliable can his statements be?
I mean he could have witnessed the battles against Philip V but surely not Pyrrhus´ battles...

[ABH2]

Well, we can question any of the ancient historians we have, but Polybius is typically fairly reliable and provides some of the most accurate and detailed aspects of military affairs. Many of the sources we have available to use are ultimately from far after the events. There are no surviving accounts of Alexander the Great. The earliest we have were written in the 1st century AD with Diodorus of Sicily writing a bit earlier sometime in the 1st century BC. Ancient historians have a very difficult task.

But what he says is repeated by other writers. Dionysius of Halicarnassus:

Having agreed through heralds upon the time when they would join in battle,1 they descended from their camps and took up their positions as follows: King Pyrrhus gave the Macedonian phalanx the first place on the right wing and placed next to it the Italiot mercenaries from Tarentum; 2 then the troops from Ambracia and after them the phalanx of Tarentines equipped with white shields, forced by the allied force of Bruttians and Lucanians; in the middle of the battle-line he stationed the Thesprotians and Chaonians; next to them the mercenaries of the Aetolians, Acarnanians and Athamanians, and finally the Samnites, who constituted the left wing. 3 Of the horse, he stationed the Samnite, Thessalian and Bruttian squadrons and the Tarentine mercenary force upon the right wing, and the Ambraciot, Lucanian and Tarentine squadrons and the Greek mercenaries, consisting of Acarnanians, Aetolians, Macedonians and Athamanians, on the left. 4 The p389light-armed troops and the elephants he divided into two groups and placed them behind both wings, at a reasonable distance, in a position slightly elevated above the plain. He himself, surrounded by the royal agema, as it was called, of picked horsemen, about two thousand in number, was outs the battle-line, so as to aid promptly any of his troops in turn that might be hard pressed.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...assus/20*.html

In the case of the Tarantines, I would have to try and dig up the original Greek to double check the translation, but phalanx itself does not always mean in Macedonian style when used by authors. But many of these forces clearly aren't carrying sarissa and they are completely intermixed.

[Maetharin]

Perfect, now you made me interested in a petty detail, and I won´t be able to rest until I have found at least some sort of clue on this...
The armament of the tarantines is pretty interesting, especially since their spatial distance limited the influence of mainland greece on the greeks of Magna Graecia.


What I meant about Polybios´s unreliabilty in this case would be the size of the allied contingents, "a maniple of" sounds awefully small.
It would take considerable training to control such small intermixed forces. And unlike his mercenaries, the italian allies were trained in their own fashion, they still were levy troops.

Dionysius sounds more accurate in my opinion, since he writes that he arranged first from right to left the macedonians(no number but I think all of his "regular" troops) then Italian mercenaries, then the ambracians and tarantines , then the Italian allies, then greek mercenaries/allies and then the samnites. All of these are contingents rather than smaller units.

Polybios lived about a century after Pyrrhus left Italy, and he must have gathered information through official roman reports (which we don´t know the accuracy of) and from tales in his youth on the Peloponnes.
He witnessed the roman legion of Scipio Aemilianus and Aemilius Paullus , and I can imagine him simplifying facts for his readers or just taking what he read/heard seriously.

I don´t want to mark him as unrelieable, but rather out of his field on this aspect, he still is the most reliable source concerning his age, much like Xenophon and Thucydides of their age.

Best regards

[Fetzen]

Great mod, a perfect addition to the already great DeI. Without you guys Rome II would be 50 bucks thrown out of the window for me.

I got a question too, and I apologize if it's been answered before: I also downloaded the "4TPY/all factions" mod, but some of the factions that would interest me the most (Syracuse, Pergamum(!)) are still not playable. Is there a way to solve this problem?

[KAM 2150]

You need to buy DLC for them; )

[Fetzen]

You need to buy DLC for them; )

oO Funny enough, I didnt think of THAT option anymore at all. I just found the original game so that I don't take the official DLCs into account anymore. They are a blind spot for me.

I'll check Steam and see what it is I need to buy. For this mod and what it creates out of a mediocre, boring original game it will be worth it.

[Penpen]

Please explain how to increase cultural level of faction.

[Mietek88]

Difference cultural it's great idea, but you have to refine it a bit.
Seleucid Empire 15% hellenistic in Syria it's ok, but in Syracuse 15% it is not enough.

PS. Sorry for my english.

[Draewn]

Well, these cultural levels are also to some extent seeming to represent levels of political control and influence - thus each one having a "subculture" largely consisting of factionalism / local authority in the regions, with the player needing to either surpass that or play very softball with their people to prevent unrest. So it's not that Syracuse isn't Hellenic (which would indeed be absurd) but that achieving political control of all Sicily not just in terms of the notional loyalty of the rulers but actual facts-on-the-ground RULE is difficult stuff.

[Mietek88]

Playing Macedonia after 4 rounds can not recruit units, because the cultural level has dropped below 30. Playing Seleucid can not recruit hellenic units. I think you can lower the threshold of recruitment from 30 to 5.

[Mietek88]

The level of Hellenic culture in Syria reduced to 8, in Babylon to 5. At the same time lessen ksry for the presence of other kultur.Macedon was a unitary country, the Hellenic Seleucid Empire, people were a minority. PS. Sory for my english.

[ABH2]

The AOR issue is a serious bug. Macedon should not lose the ability to recruit in its home territories n matter what, however. Same with anyone else. I plan to do some major bug fixing today on this and I will take a look.

Well, these cultural levels are also to some extent seeming to represent levels of political control and influence - thus each one having a "subculture" largely consisting of factionalism / local authority in the regions, with the player needing to either surpass that or play very softball with their people to prevent unrest. So it's not that Syracuse isn't Hellenic (which would indeed be absurd) but that achieving political control of all Sicily not just in terms of the notional loyalty of the rulers but actual facts-on-the-ground RULE is difficult stuff.

This is the idea. With the generic religious system of vanilla, many cultures can basically sweep their neighbors with no real public order issues which is unrealistic and, at least in my view, causes issues. Not saying our solution is the best or perfect.

Conversion has also been slowed down quite a bit. Because it took a while to consolidate new people. Growth in this game should work slow at the start to build the foundations of an empire and speed up in the late game, ideally, as the there is more consolidation across the map. Some factions like Rome and Carthage should have an easier time at the start. The AI sucks so this system is mainly meant for the player.

To convert, build temples. It's not overly complicated. You just need to devote resources to it.