Anyone else thinks Portugal roster is sad ?

[Maslow]

Please don't take the topic title as an insult cause i don't mean that, far from it.

What i mean is, I am sure Portuguese medieval history could give shining examples of military units to configure a more unique roster. Cause, as it is, i find it nothing more than a clone of the spanish troops. Let's see:

- Jinetes

- Knight's of Santiago

- Conquistadores

- Almughavars

Well, maybe you will find my issue idiotic, but, honestly, i would enjoy much more the portugese faction if it had more unique units.

And, on top of that, the Kingdom of Navarre is now part of Portugal ? Shame CA, shame...

[SigniferOne]

I was a little surprised to see that my Spanish, when fighting Portugese, were generally fighting a lot of the same troops. I am not an expert on the area, so what changes would you propose to the unit roster?

By the way, I was also surprised by Navarre being part of Portugal. It could have been left rebel, since the Spanish certainly didn't control it, but then it was given to Portugal so that they'd have at least a CHANCE... Not the worst decision in the world, all things considered.

[Maslow]

Mmmm, the problem is, i'm not an expert in Portuguese military history, so i can't give any accurate ideas about historical units for that faction. On the other hand, i know those units i mentioned before are specific of the spanish faction (even if a "spanish faction" is, too, inaccurate for the time frame of the game).

Honestly, i was expecting some portuguese help in the hope to shed some light on this. Seeing that there are a lot of members of that country posting around.

As you say, SignifierOne, i understand CA decition of giving Navarre to Portugal from a gameplay point of view, but, in any case i think spliting the Portuguese lands in two provinces should be a more elegant solution, rather than giving them a region that nothing have to do with the portuguese.

[Cromelex]

See this ? It's a medieval painting of the Aljubarrota Battle (1385), which opposed the Portuguese (and allied english Longbowmen) to Spanish (with minor french allies). It clearly shows heavy armour. Ingame there are only two heavy infantry units, Feudal Knights and Dismounted Portuguese Knights.

It is very difficult to find info on the military equipment of the time, but Portugal should have an Armoured Swordsmen unit, because the lack of High period heavy infantry is just silly.

Then there is the knights part....

There were 3 Knight orders, which very important in Portugal:

Templars Knights (and the Christ Knights after the suppression of the Templars in 1312. The King was grateful to the Templars and managed to protect them, creating another Order, basicaly just changing the name from Templars to Christ Knights)

Aviz Knights (founded by the 1st King) <- The grandmaster of this order became the 1st king of the 2nd Dinasty ).

Santiago Knights (these are present in game, though these were the LEAST important of the 3 ).


At the same time, some countries have Templar + Hospitalar (can't spell this one correctly) + some more knights.

They could have added one knight unit and an High Period dismounted swordsmen Knight :hmmm:


I won't even discuss the map issue, as I have accepted that it was just a matter of balancing.

[EvilNed]

Conquistadores were not unique to Spain.

[Maslow]

Conquistadores were not unique to Spain.

How so ? Conquistadores is the spanish term that serves to define a group of spanish explorers and warriors who conquered the new world during the XVI century.

[Mikel]

Conquistadores were not unique to Spain.

Don't say that out loud, in public. Trust me.

[Maslow]

So, the knights of Santiago really fought under the Portuguese banner ? Well, i didn't know that. At least that unit is properly represented then.

What do you think about the other ones ? For example Conquistadores. I think CA included them in the Portuguese roster cause they had an important role in the discovery and colonization of the new world but, that reason justifies the presence of Conquistadores (note the spanish name) ? mmm, maybe if they were a similar unit but with a proper portuguese name...

[Cromelex]

So, the knights of Santiago really fought under the Portuguese banner ? Well, i didn't know that. At least that unit is properly represented then.

Yes, they did.

What do you think about the other ones ? For example Conquistadores. I think CA included them in the Portuguese roster cause they had an important role in the discovery and colonization of the new world but, that reason justifies the presence of Conquistadores (note the spanish name) ? mmm, maybe if they were a similar unit but with a proper portuguese name...

Well, the Portuguese military was very similar to the Spanish. It is very likely that the Portuguese had the same kind of unit.

Oh, and Conquistadores can be a Portuguese word aswell. Same spelling, same meaning, diferent pronunciation. Meaning "those who conquer".

[warblah]

Two things:
Portugese Pikemen are superior than Spain's Teico Pikemen, they are on par with the swiss guard.
Portugese Arquebusiers are MUCH superior than Spain's Arquebusiers

[Maslow]

Yeah, i know that every and each unit isn't a carbon copy of the spanish roster, but what i find annoying is that most of the units unique to spain are used to fill the gaps in the portuguese roster, as if CA were unable to find historical portuguese units in order to build a more accurate one.

[Mithradates]

Two things:
Portugese Pikemen are superior than Spain's Teico Pikemen, they are on par with the swiss guard.
Portugese Arquebusiers are MUCH superior than Spain's Arquebusiers

I was VERY surprised when I saw that Portugal has the armored gunmen and not Spain, When I saw them the first time I thought it is a bug because they look like the guys from the movies, conquistadors with guns

Well, okay Portugal has them but not Spain, why?

[Hedniskhjäertad]

I was VERY surprised when I saw that Portugal has the armored gunmen and not Spain, When I saw them the first time I thought it is a bug because they look like the guys from the movies, conquistadors with guns

Well, okay Portugal has them but not Spain, why?

They should have. Both of them had it. And they were not the only ones.

[Mithradates]

Oh yes, the other thing, I know the Tercio Pikemen were uber but how the hell can I use them?
All the time they drop their pikes and start swordfighting (and loosing...)

[Hedniskhjäertad]

The thing is, most of the sources from military tactics & organization, comes from at least the 1400's. And they do not give any kind of details about wich weapons, or the composition of the Portuguese army.

But you can't avoid the cloning. Mostly of the european armies were cloning forces. Except from a few things, like the English longbowmen. One thing i'm certain: the Portuguese army was not a 'non professional force' as seeing in game. To be honest, i think that they were one of the firsts who did something quite professional when used their armies to secure the new colonies. But thats quite after the middle ages.


It's hard to talk about units on MTW, because Portugal should not be there on 1080. So, when Portugal should appear, they should have Feudal Knights, Templars, Santiago Knights, Dismounted Feudal, Pikemen.

And the Spanish should be able to recruit something as 'Frankish Knights', as they were allied. And the portuguese should be able to recruit longbowmen.

The long lasting alliance between Portugal & England was VERY powerful. You can even read about Portuguese soldiers fighting under the leadership of Wellington on Portugal & Spain.

[PARC]

Here are my 2 cents,
Im also Portuguese and i read alot about our famous medieval battles vs the spanish and from what i read i've come to this conclusions,

The Portuguese army was a drafted army mostly BUT our peasents were all armoured and had their own weapons and armour most of them and as they were fighting for independence their morale was always skyhigh.
we mostly relied on lots of heavy and light infantry, few knights, few light cavalry, a lot of tricks and traps and very good genrals, our forces remind me of scotish forces to some point.

The Spanish were a more professional army as they already had a kingdom and they were like a french army but as they were more professinal army they had a lot more heavy cavalry and more infantry in numbers not quality and lower morale as they were fighting for cash not their country.

Our battles were mostly us defending very outnumbered but vs a eager but not so smart enemy as they always though we were easy pickings. much like france vs english at agincourt, instead of longbows we used pikes and heavy inf, + oil traps

I think the game could be much more improved in our armies and its 2 easy 2 conquer the spanish with Portugal in the game, in reality it wasn't so easy fighting them

Cya

[Maslow]

Here are my 2 cents,
Im also Portuguese and i read alot about our famous medieval battles vs the spanish and from what i read i've come to this conclusions,

The Portuguese army was a drafted army mostly BUT our peasents were all armoured and had their own weapons and armour most of them and as they were fighting for independence their morale was always skyhigh.
we mostly relied on lots of heavy and light infantry, few knights, few light cavalry, a lot of tricks and traps and very good genrals, our forces remind me of scotish forces to some point.

The Spanish were a more professional army as they already had a kingdom and they were like a french army but as they were more professinal army they had a lot more heavy cavalry and more infantry in numbers not quality and lower morale as they were fighting for cash not their country.

Our battles were mostly us defending very outnumbered but vs a eager but not so smart enemy as they always though we were easy pickings. much like france vs english at agincourt, instead of longbows we used pikes and heavy inf, + oil traps

I think the game could be much more improved in our armies and its 2 easy 2 conquer the spanish with Portugal in the game, in reality it wasn't so easy fighting them

Cya

You are completely true about the bravery and skill showed by the Portuguese along the Middles Ages, some battles, specially against the Castillians became amazing feats in the defence of Portugal indepence.

I fully agree that, anyone who consider the Portuguese army sub-par with the other powers in the peninsula, is absolutely wrong. Specially taking into account that the main reason why the iberian troops were excellent, was their battle-hardened nature due to the constant infighting. In this matter Portugal wasn't the exception, quiet the contrary.

[Sadreddine]

@ Hedniskhjäertad

I´m very glad to read posts from a Portuguese that does not take the SPAIN AND SPANISH SUX, PORTUGUESE RULZ attitude, undoubtely born out of an amusing sense of inferiority. But you´re objective, reasonable and well documented in your assertions, good work. Portugal has a rich history and culture and most to be proud of, but that childish attitude most Portuguese I´ve encountered in forums have is very annoying.

Back on topic anyway. While it is true that there were portuguese conquistadores among the spanish ranks, this happened outside the "usual period" that has made spanish Conquistadores famous worldwide, that is, the initial stage of the American conquest. This portuguese "conquistadores" joined the spanish during the somewhat brief period when we were united under the rule of Emperor Felipe II.

If you take the term "portuguese conquistadores" as the soldiers who conquered lands in Africa and India for the portuguese comercial empire, that´s another story. It does not respond to the concept of "Conquistadores" this topic has. Still, this do not mean they were conquerors by their own right, just in a different context for M2TW or this thread.

[jegui]

@ Hedniskhjäertad

I´m very glad to read posts from a Portuguese that does not take the SPAIN AND SPANISH SUX, PORTUGUESE RULZ attitude, undoubtely born out of an amusing sense of inferiority. But you´re objective, reasonable and well documented in your assertions, good work. Portugal has a rich history and culture and most to be proud of, but that childish attitude most Portuguese I´ve encountered in forums have is very annoying.

Back on topic anyway. While it is true that there were portuguese conquistadores among the spanish ranks, this happened outside the "usual period" that has made spanish Conquistadores famous worldwide, that is, the initial stage of the American conquest. This portuguese "conquistadores" joined the spanish during the somewhat brief period when we were united under the rule of Emperor Felipe II.

If you take the term "portuguese conquistadores" as the soldiers who conquered lands in Africa and India for the portuguese comercial empire, that´s another story. It does not respond to the concept of "Conquistadores" this topic has. Still, this do not mean they were conquerors by their own right, just in a different context for M2TW or this thread.

I agree on this one... as a Portuguese myself I think the term 'Exploradores' is a more appropriate word. At the time of Portuguese expansion the crown was more interested in exploring alternative ways to trade with India and make profit rather than just going after gold and subduing native people and conquering lands/cities. Portuguese pioneered exploration and trading and we wanted to keep trade posts and build fortresses to keep our presence. Most of the Portuguese exploration in Africa and South America was done with the help of local indigenous people and with the aim to build trade posts and bring exotic products to the Portuguese crown. They still got subdued due to disease and slavery

The Spanish however having gone behind in the discoveries and the path to India decided to cash in with their discoveries by conquering the Mayas, Incas and Aztecs and land-grabbing the more they could so that they would have a good stand with the pope and other European powers at the time (XV, XVI). Theirs enterprises were more after the 'Glory' aspect of exploration and thus the name 'Conquistadores' rather than 'Exploradores'

As for the period of the game I don't think either Spain or Portugal should be represented... Instead it was a system of kingdoms that reigned in (Aragon, Castilla...) I think CA wants an expansion for the game with the discovery of the new world as a theme and thus you need Portuguese and Spanish in the game

[Maslow]

Thanks for your contribution both Ibn Rushd and Jegui.

Thanks to your posts the matter about Conquistadores is becoming more clear for me now.