Does Arnor ever use its late general's bodyguard unit, at all, ever?

[Roma_Victrix]

I'm kind of perplexed by this. I haven't played an Eriador/Arnor campaign yet, but I've played as both Gondor and the High Elves. One thing I've noticed (through spying, not actual battles on my Arnorian ally, aside from going into the custom battles menu to view the unit eye candy) is that when Eriador becomes Arnor, they keep the old Dunedain bodyguard units. It doesn't seem like any new family members in their faction have the upgraded, much more heavy looking bodyguard unit specific to Arnor. Is Arnor able to recruit the late period general's bodyguard? Does it ever appear in the actual game? Or is it only something that's available in custom battles and using the cheat code "create_unit" in the campaign map to add them to settlements and armies? If the ultimate decision was to keep them out of the game, why? They look great!

In fact, it might be a make-or-break thing for my decision to ever play with them at all. Gondor and the High Elves have amazing looking elite mounted bodyguard units for generals. Eriador's bodyguard unit is...okay, but okay doesn't measure up to the aforementioned factions' bodyguard units. I think Dale's archer bodyguard unit looks way better, for instance, and far less like a ragtag force. Such a shame too, because overall I think they're units are great, including the Grey Company mounted archers (Gondor doesn't have any horse archers, although the High Elves have those Imladris Riders).

I'm playing with Leo's sub-mod, so I don't know if this matters at all (I only played a quick and unfinished Gondor campaign in vanilla TATW before playing a full Gondor campaign using Leo's sub-mod). I'm assuming vanilla TATW operates the same way as Leo's sub-mod in this regard.

EDIT: See post #16 below for advice on changing the appearance of Dunedain Bodyguards to that of Arnor Bodyguards using the export_descr_unit.txt file in the TATW data folder.

[Flinn]

afaik, only new generals (after Arnor reforms) will get the new bodygard units.

Witty made a special submod called "Bodyguard Switcher", I guess you can use it to update them (at least when you play as Arnor), but he will probably tell you more or you can check here, although I'm not sure if it works with submods too (even if based on 3.2).

Furthermore, IIRC Arnorian's new bodyguards should be Annuminas Knights (possibly with slighlty better stats, as it happens for instance for Rohan's bodyguards compared to regular Royal Guard), so in any case you can play them on the battlefield as regular AK.

[Withwnar]

I don't see how they can use them. The bodyguard of any new general of a faction* - the "default bodyguard" - will always be the first unit in EDU that has both that faction in its "ownership" and the "general_unit" attribute. When Eriador 'becomes' Arnor they are still the turks faction so unless the EDU file is edited at that time the default bodyguard is the same as it was for Eriador. So no, new Arnor generals won't have a different bodyguard and there's no way to change the bodyguard of existing generals either** (other than by something like the thing Flinn mentioned).

* Unless they are spawned by script or is a starting character in descr_strat, in which case the bodyguard must be explicitly stated and can be any unit type.

** Actually there is: marion reforms. It's a thing from RTW and apparently still works in M2TW. I can't remember the details but I think it requires, for one thing, a faction (or a settlement?) to be internally named as "rome".

[Flinn]

so how it worked for regular M2TW? I remember well that when you crossed through periods (low-mid etc), the general bodyguard's were updating automatically (at least cavalry generals). Am I dreaming or mixing it up with another game??

less white russian, that's what I need

[Ngugi]

Those, and/or a switcher that replace the EDU, inbetween saves, like the FAR-launcher (from a submod) used in MOS to make Arnor look more Arnor-ish.

[Withwnar]

It's been a very long time since I played a M2TW campaign but I have no recollection of that. Are you sure you're not thinking of RTW? From what I'm reading that had a function along those lines but seems to have been disabled in M2TW...

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...ard-%28late%29

Curiously, vanilla M2TW has the general_unit_upgrade attribute in some units ("late" bodyguards), which I have never noticed before. But the above thread says it doesn't do anything.

EDIT: here's info about Marian Reforms: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eforms-in-M2TW. Even more involved than I thought - the "roman" culture part. Ah, and that also explains what general_unit_upgrade is for.

[Flinn]

uh thanks for the links Witty, but its way too techy for me

Curiously, vanilla M2TW has the general_unit_upgrade attribute in some units ("late" bodyguards), which I have never noticed before. But the above thread says it doesn't do anything

that's what I was referring too, honesty now that I think at it I can't recollect for sure if new generals came with new bodygards units or not
too much time passed and too many neurons gone meanwhile

[Ngugi]

@ W'
I was thinking of a quick and dirty switcher of the EDU with a new EDU that place the Arnor BG ahead of Eriador's BG

Marian & general_unit_upgrade: interesting that With a proper Marian reform general_unit_upgrade should work then I take it

[Withwnar]

honesty now that I think at it I can't recollect for sure if new generals came with new bodygards units or not
too much time passed and too many neurons gone meanwhile

Or maybe you played a mod that implemented the Marian Reforms. Vanilla doesn't, so I'm confused by it containing these "late" bodyguards.

@ W'
I was thinking of a quick and dirty switcher of the EDU with a new EDU that place the Arnor BG ahead of Eriador's BG

Marian & general_unit_upgrade: interesting that With a proper Marian reform general_unit_upgrade should work then I take it

A switcher, yes. That would affect new generals. Maybe the Full Arnor Reemergence (?) submod included this.

Marian: never tried it myself but if it didn't work then the tutorial would have been corrected by now, surely. The issue for TATW is that no culture slots remain, and turning an existing one into "roman" would be a huge effort. Not just text file changes but file names, folder names and custom settlement assignments.

[Ngugi]

Switcher: I was thinking of that, and I think so, but not quite sure, not used that submod (in MOS) for ages


On reply to Flinn: may be a misunderstanding that it would work outisde of a Marian-event/mechanics as well perhaps?


Marian: didn't consider it a task for anyone to assign to for TATW (don't worry, I don't get funny ideas now ), just neat the option at all exist for M2 indeed

[Withwnar]

may be a misunderstanding that it would work outisde of a Marian-event/mechanics as well perhaps?

A misunderstanding on Creative Assembly's part? (By "vanilla" I meant vanilla M2TW not TATW.) It's possible that it is left over from a different mechanism which they did not finish. And it's possible that there is indeed another working mechanism (which I'm unaware of) which vanilla DOES use - this would explain vanilla's "late" units and Flinn's memory of it happening. But everything I've read on the subject says that Marian Reforms is the only way to do it.

For the record: vanilla TATW does not use general_unit_upgrade, so even if such a mechanism exists TATW doesn't use it --> Arnor does not get a different bodyguard. Which begs the question of why the "Arnor Bodyguard" unit type is even present. Custom battles, sure, but why are they made available there if they don't appear in the campaign? They are not used at all, not even for a spawned general. Their only presence in any other file is export_descr_sounds_units_voice.txt.

EDIT: "Arnor Bodyguard", I suspect, is a leftover from an abandoned way of implementing the whole Arnor thing. Just like "byzantium" pops up in many places in the files where it isn't needed, e.g. recruit_pool lines in EDB.

[Ngugi]

Should thought of the "vanilla M2"-part there, yes, hehe.
Something dropped sounds credible enough.

What you say in your edit was my suspicion when I wrote 'misunderstanding'

[Roma_Victrix]

Hah! Don't drink too many of those white Russians, Flinn, or you could have a spotty liver like The Dude.



I'm only guessing that he has a bad liver.

As for the whole Marian reforms thing, that's interesting, and I'd like to know more about the mechanics behind it. I too am perplexed about the existence of the Arnor Bodyguard unit. It makes for quite a nice unit if you're cheating, but for those who don't want to cheat, there's no way to add it into the campaign and battle map of the game!

[Flinn]

oh man, how I'd like to have a bathrobe like that one!

anyhow my friend, Arnorian best troops are the Knights of Annùminas, along with Swan Knights (IIRC) they are the best cavalry unit in game, they can really kill hundreds and hundreds of enemies in one single battle.
Arnor take quite a while to reform and even some more time to have the recruitment buildings to be able to recruit AK, but if you love those Dunedains and their pesky Hobbit allies, time will run quite fast

[Roma_Victrix]

oh man, how I'd like to have a bathrobe like that one!

anyhow my friend, Arnorian best troops are the Knights of Annùminas, along with Swan Knights (IIRC) they are the best cavalry unit in game, they can really kill hundreds and hundreds of enemies in one single battle.
Arnor take quite a while to reform and even some more time to have the recruitment buildings to be able to recruit AK, but if you love those Dunedains and their pesky Hobbit allies, time will run quite fast

I love Swan Knights, and although I never played an Arnor campaign, I've seen the Knights of Annuminas in action by doing a couple custom battles with them. They're totally sweet! I love their barded horses, too, very fancy looking.

HEY! It just dawned on me that you can probably change the way the Dunedain Bodyguards look by simply editing the export_descr_unit.txt file in the data folder. If you want them to look like Arnor Bodyguards / Arnor Knights (they use the same exact soldier model from the battle_models file in the unit_models folder), then there's basically just a couple fields you need to edit as such:

This is the original entry in the export_descr_unit file:

type Mounted Dunedain BG
dictionary Mounted_Dunedain_BG ; Dunedain Bodyguards
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade
soldier mounted_br, 12, 0, 1
mount northern heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, general_unit, free_upkeep_unit
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square
stat_health 1, 2
stat_pri 8, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 11, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 7, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 8
stat_ground -1, -1, -3, -2
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 950, 320, 120, 120, 950, 2, 250
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models mounted_br, mounted_br_upg
ownership turks
era 0 turks
era 1 turks
era 2 turks
recruit_priority_offset 5

This is how it should read if you want them to look like Arnor Bodyguards (changes are highlighted in red):

type Mounted Dunedain BG
dictionary Mounted_Dunedain_BG ; Dunedain Bodyguards
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade
soldier arnor_knights, 12, 0, 1
mount northern heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, general_unit, free_upkeep_unit
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square
stat_health 1, 2
stat_pri 8, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 11, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 7, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 8
stat_ground -1, -1, -3, -2
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 950, 320, 120, 120, 950, 2, 250
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models arnor_knights, arnor_knights_upg
ownership turks
era 0 turks
era 1 turks
era 2 turks
recruit_priority_offset 5

For anyone who does this, I would advise doing it AFTER the Eriador reforms itself and becomes Arnor (with the scroll message announcing this event, allowing for new Arnor-style troops to be levied). Or, you know, you could just say "screw that advice" and have Arnor Bodyguards right from the beginning. Your choice, I suppose.

If you really want to hammer home the similarities, you could even change the number of soldiers in the Dunedain Bodyguard unit shown above from 12 to 15 to match the Arnor Bodyguard unit (on huge unit settings this means your bodyguard unit will be something like 38 mounted soldiers at its base).

Mind you, the Dunedain Bodyguards do not have the same stats as the actual Arnor Bodyguard unit and are weaker than the latter in terms of overall armor, but if you simply want them to look cool and feel like the Arnor reforms were fully implemented, this is probably your best way to do that.

[Matamelcan]

That explains it.
Dang it.

[Påsan]

Or you could just switch the "General_Unit" Stat over to the Arnor nights. However this way, only new generals will spawn with Arnor knights.

[Steward Denethor II]

I suppose you could make the Eriador bodyguard use the Arnor bodyguard model when its armour is upgraded. You might also want to allow Arnor to get full plate when doing this.