Ethiopian Axemen?

[LinusLinothorax]

Ok, after almost 1,5 years i think it is time to overcome the bad blood i once had with the one or other EB teammeber and also to overcome my own butthurtery. So, this is my comeback in the EB2-forum. To come to topic: I am sorry for more or less necroing this thread, but i think the questions i have are worth it.

1) What is your guys source for the double-headed axe?
2) What is your source for the mail armour for your "Ethiopiai Agemata", and on what did you based that they came into beeing in the end of EB's timeframe?
3) Are your "Ethiopian" units in EB2 supposed to represent Kushite units or are there gonna be some seperate "Noubaioi" units as in EB1, while the "Ethiopian" units represent warriors from modern northern Ethiopia / Eritrea?
4) On what did you based the helmets of the Ethiopian units in EB1?
5) Is there atleast a single written source proving the usage of Kushites / other Southlanders in the army of the Ptolies?

[excubitor]

who was the member you had bad blood with?

i suspect who but plz confirm.

[QuintusSertorius]

who was the member you had bad blood with?

i suspect who but plz confirm.

No thank you, we don't need to dredge that up again.

End of this line of conversation, any further replies on it will be deleted.

[Moros]

Ok, after almost 1,5 years i think it is time to overcome the bad blood i once had with the one or other EB teammeber and also to overcome my own butthurtery. So, this is my comeback in the EB2-forum. To come to topic: I am sorry for more or less necroing this thread, but i think the questions i have are worth it.

1) What is your guys source for the double-headed axe?
2) What is your source for the mail armour for your "Ethiopiai Agemata", and on what did you based that they came into beeing in the end of EB's timeframe?
3) Are your "Ethiopian" units in EB2 supposed to represent Kushite units or are there gonna be some seperate "Noubaioi" units as in EB1, while the "Ethiopian" units represent warriors from modern northern Ethiopia / Eritrea?
4) On what did you based the helmets of the Ethiopian units in EB1?
5) Is there atleast a single written source proving the usage of Kushites / other Southlanders in the army of the Ptolies?

1) There are actually quite a few Ethiopian/Blemmyan terracotta statuettes from the ptolemaic time frame depicting warriors with double headed axes. Do also note that on the other side of the Red Sea double headed axes are also attested both by Strabo and graffiti. So it's not even an isolated case.
2)Do note that the EB1 unit is not concepted by any member active on EB2. So it's difficult for us to be held accountable. One of the above mentioned terracotta does appear to wear armour that could be mail, though the safest bet would be that it is scale. Scale and especially mail however should probably not have been used on this unit as it would likely be very rare for any infantry unit. Some armour might be represented in cavalry units, but unlikely that those will feature mail.
3)The plan was to first make more generic units to fill the most important gap and later to concept possible more specific and unique units.
4)No idea. The person responsible isn't on the team any more. There's actually barely any clear evidence on helmets.
5)Will need to check that, or ask paullus the one doing the concepting. But I do know they were common mercenaries in the armies of the Sabaeans and their rivalling neighbours.

Note: I'm not the one concepting the units, but I merely passed on information from the related unit concept threads. Whereas in EB1 an historian would just tell a modeller and skinner what to make by private communication, in EB2 we make threads in which we concept our units and back them up with the relevant sources. Allowing for peer review by the other historians of the team, actually having to present sources and to back up our units and arguments for the future. It has made EBII even more historically accurate.

[QuintusSertorius]

2)Do note that the EB1 unit is not concepted by any member active on EB2. So it's difficult for us to be held accountable. One of the above mentioned terracotta does appear to wear armour that could be mail, though the safest bet would be that it is scale. Scale and especially mail however should probably not have been used on this unit as it would likely be very rare for any infantry unit. Some armour might be represented in cavalry units, but unlikely that those will feature mail.

I want to emphasise the point behind this particular response again. People need to understand that as far as EBII goes, EB1 is completely irrelevant. I don't care what happened in that game, what units were or weren't present, how they were portrayed. It is neither suggestive of what should be in EBII, nor a persuasive reason to justify why we should or shouldn't do something.

[LinusLinothorax]

1) There are actually quite a few Ethiopian/Blemmyan terracotta statuettes from the ptolemaic time frame depicting warriors with double headed axes.

I already assumed that you based them on the Ptolemaic terracottas. You are refering to these specimens:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

However, it is not only that these figurines only wear onehanded axes and not twohanded ones, but their value as a historical source for Kushite warriors in general is highly dubious. These terracottas are not supposed to represent Kushite warriors in a realistic way, but are rather massproduced toys for private households. I have talked with a employer on the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe in Hamburg, where the second terracotta is located, and he could confirm me that. To underline that conclusion one just have to check the gear of the second figurine: He wears a Phrygian cap, together with trousers and a double-headed axe, all things which were definetly not employed by Kushites. Only really interesting is his round shield, which occurs in a handfull of Meroitic souces. The first figurine also has the trousers and the double-headed axe, so its also not trustworthy. Other Ptolemaic terracottas have these mankos aswell. So again, be warned: The Ptolemaic terracottas are no reliale sources for the equipment of Kushite warriors.

2)Do note that the EB1 unit is not concepted by any member active on EB2. So it's difficult for us to be held accountable. One of the above mentioned terracotta does appear to wear armour that could be mail, though the safest bet would be that it is scale. Scale and especially mail however should probably not have been used on this unit as it would likely be very rare for any infantry unit.

Not that it would really matters since these terracottas are unreliable anyway, but it is assumed that the warrior once sat on a horse (I just assume you are refering to the second one i posted).

3)The plan was to first make more generic units to fill the most important gap and later to concept possible more specific and unique units.

I see. Just wondered about the thick full beards some of them wearing. From what i have seen beards were not really worn by both Kushites and Aksumites (Though i cant really speak for Proto-Aksumites yet).

4)No idea. The person responsible isn't on the team any more. There's actually barely any clear evidence on helmets.

True. The few sources and hints we have are vague at best, and highly problematical at worst.

5)Will need to check that, or ask paullus the one doing the concepting. But I do know they were common mercenaries in the armies of the Sabaeans and their rivalling neighbours.

Could you tell more about them?

[Moros]

I already assumed that you based them on the Ptolemaic terracottas. You are refering to these specimens:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

However, it is not only that these figurines only wear onehanded axes and not twohanded ones, but their value as a historical source for Kushite warriors in general is highly dubious. These terracottas are not supposed to represent Kushite warriors in a realistic way, but are rather massproduced toys for private households. I have talked with a employer on the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe in Hamburg, where the second terracotta is located, and he could confirm me that. To underline that conclusion one just have to check the gear of the second figurine: He wears a Phrygian cap, together with trousers and a double-headed axe, all things which were definetly not employed by Kushites. Only really interesting is his round shield, which occurs in a handfull of Meroitic souces. The first figurine also has the trousers and the double-headed axe, so its also not trustworthy. Other Ptolemaic terracottas have these mankos aswell. So again, be warned: The Ptolemaic terracottas are no reliale sources for the equipment of Kushite warriors.

yes we are well aware that the axes were one handed adn that many elements of those figurines are lets say romantic avant la lettre (take some of Amazonian shields as an example). We have taken that into consideration. However while most the terracottas are not to be seen as the typical Ethiopian or Blemmyan infantry unit. We do think that the double handed axes were used as weapons in some amount. Certain reliefs also depict axes as weapons and both Arab and Sayhad culture also clearly used axes (especially the Himyar) as weapons. So its not merely a single case within wider context. And indeed the second terracotta shows a cavalry man, which we assume to have been quite a step up in class and hierarchy to any infantry unit. We are not going to make a second iteration of the prementioned unit, but we do consider double headed axes as a possible part of the panoply of certain units. Do note that at this certain point of time no axemen unit has been definitely concepted and given a go ahead.

I see. Just wondered about the thick full beards some of them wearing. From what i have seen beards were not really worn by both Kushites and Aksumites (Though i cant really speak for Proto-Aksumites yet).

I, then again I'm not the one concepting these or responsible for their creation, know little of their facial hair.

True. The few sources and hints we have are vague at best, and highly problematical at worst.

Yes, hence certain educated guesses might be needed.

5)Will need to check that, or ask paullus the one doing the concepting. But I do know they were common mercenaries in the armies of the Sabaeans and their rivalling neighbours.

The one concepting these is a professor in warfare, with a specialty in Ptolemaic warfare and state institution, he'll know much more the
than me. If there are references he'll know them and will probably be able to pull them. Because of the same reason his time might be limited and thus a reply might not be swift. On their use by the Sabaeans a good source of inscriptions and some explaining can be found in the work of A.F.L. Beeston which mainly covers the AD period, as inscriptions on warfare of the Syhad culture during the middle Era (3rd century BC-1st century AD) are mainly limited to wishing/thanking the gods for well-being and/or loot.
Could you tell more about them?

[LinusLinothorax]

Certain reliefs also depict axes as weapons (....)

Yes, two relief scenes (Not including the cermoninial club-axes), both from temple M 250, plus a handful of archaeological finds. Might indeed even be enough for warranting a whole unit, though i still wouldnt go nor for twhohanded nor twoheaded axes for Kushites.

Do note that at this certain point of time no axemen unit has been definitely concepted and given a go ahead.

If i recall right the Ethiopian captains already have twohanded axes tho.

On their use by the Sabaeans a good source of inscriptions and some explaining can be found in the work of A.F.L. Beeston which mainly covers the AD period, as inscriptions on warfare of the Syhad culture during the middle Era (3rd century BC-1st century AD) are mainly limited to wishing/thanking the gods for well-being and/or loot.

Are you refering to his "Sabaean Inscriptions" from 1937?

[Moros]

Yes, two relief scenes (Not including the cermoninial club-axes), both from temple M 250, plus a handful of archaeological finds. Might indeed even be enough for warranting a whole unit, though i still wouldnt go nor for twhohanded nor twoheaded axes for Kushites.

Personally I feel double axes are feasible to be featured as well. Of course, as is any subject or conclusion from history and ancient history if not proto-history, it can be debated.

If i recall right the Ethiopian captains already have twohanded axes tho.

Did we make captains for the ethiopians? I'm surprised. Might be placeholders or might have missed something. From the discussions and research done, I remember we certainly were going for one handed axes.

Are you refering to his "Sabaean Inscriptions" from 1937?

No, his work titled "Warfare in Ancient South Arabia: 2nd - 3rd c. AD". I think it is from 1967, but I'm not sure. I don't have it by hand at the moment (with the exception of some excerpts, but none relating to Habashite forces in particular).

[LinusLinothorax]

Did we make captains for the ethiopians? I'm surprised. Might be placeholders or might have missed something. From the discussions and research done, I remember we certainly were going for one handed axes.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No, his work titled "Warfare in Ancient South Arabia: 2nd - 3rd c. AD". I think it is from 1967, but I'm not sure. I don't have it by hand at the moment (with the exception of some excerpts, but none relating to Habashite forces in particular).

Thank you.