Skirmisher balance

[delra]

(split from the reform thread)

Also, am I the only one who thinks that classical Greek units are way better in the battle map than reformed ones?

Well, I have been wondering about that too. In theory both new ones should be better ccomapred to hoplites. They lose 1/2 points of armor but get more shield, more defence skill, javelins, more mobility and more stamina. One of the new ones has swords that is better agianst infantry so you have more versatility.

In the other hand they have less morale, training and discipline. I think even less mass (not sure though). This makes them easier to rout and more spread formations ussually perform worse in combat and get pushed more easily.

I forgot, campaign wise hoplites have free upkeep while the others do not. That makes the former a lot more interesting for garrisons speccially having in account the performance differences arent that great and that hoplites are better in choke points due to compact formations.

Euzonoi is a clear improve though. Better morale, damage and defences while keeping free upkeep. Using them is a no brainer. Once the reform triggers they are your skirmishers.

Thureophoroi are not the replacement for Hoplitai, not really. They're the in-between unit bridging the space between hoplite and skirmisher. The Hoplitai's reformed equivalent is the Thorakitai, which we don't have yet.

Euzonoi are actually a picked elite from the Akontistai, so if you're fielding a credible, rather than optimal army, you shouldn't really take more than one unit of Euzonoi, and for any other javelineers, Akontistai.

I thought euzonoi better quality was mostly due to better equipment. And maybe a bit more training. Been represented as quite cheap seems strange not to use several units of them.

Actually I barelly use Akontistai but at the very start of a campaign. Not that much impact and so easy to rout.
Actually I think is part of my nature. I ussually have problems to keep realistic due to my somewhat aversion to leves. They just dont seem that cost-effective to me.
Its strange because in the east Im fine with locals, they seem effective and I enjoy using them. But in the west I use my initial armies but I hardly ever recruit akonkistai, toxotai, or hippakonkistai. Until the thureos reform the cheaper units I ussually use are hoplitai and toxotai kretikoi filling the rest with logades/peltastai and epikiletoi/phalangitai depending on faction. And for cavalry hippeis or xistophoroi.

Maybe the refresh rates are too high xD

The best skirmishers are slingers. Check the numbers of kills after each battle and you'll see your Kretans aren't inflicting even half of the casualties that your slingers are... Slingers have good range, they have AP, they are cheap as hell, and when you route enemy army, you want that sort of quick unit to chase them down.

I generally avoid using javelin-throwing units as their animation pisses me off (they run forward to throw, then don't come back to formation, so I have to keep reforming and repositioning them so they don't mess my line). You can have a couple of Logades/Peltasts on each flank with the idea of using them as if they were Hastati with an extra throw... but for the bulk of ranged kills you should look towards slingers. You can use the mass of Akontistai to confuse and tie down battle AI, but that's cheap and lame exploit.

Try the following test in Custom battle (don't move units, one line, no skirmish, autofire):
1. 5x standard slingers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
2. 5x kretans vs 1x Carth Dorks.
3. 5x standard archers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
4. 3x standard archers + 3x standard slingers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
5. 5x logades vs 1x Carth Dorks.
6. 5x akontistai vs 1x Carth Dorks.
7. 5x Euzonoi vs 1x Carth Dorks.
8. 5x Equites Sabelli (jav cav) vs 1x Carth Dorks.

You will notice the following:
- Standard archers and Kretans = no difference at all in performance here. Both kill at the same rate. Accuracy, morale, defence are all lol stats that don't matter provided you don't allow your archers into melee.
- Slingers kill faster than archers. Side by side (3+3vs1) comparison shows 2-3x more kills from slingers than from archers.
- Logades are able to kill a couple dozen enemies with their javelins before the lines meet, then they are forced into melee. Even 5 to 1 they fail to obliterate the charging enemy.
- Akontistai are actually better than Logades (2x more javelins thrown) but still waaaay worse than slingers or archers.
- Not much difference between Euzonoi and Akontistai, at least none that I can see.
- Javelin cavalry sucketh.
- Dorks are way softer than you think. :-D

In summary:
- Don't get crazy over javelins, treat Logades and similar units as if they were Hastati.
- Don't overpay for Kretans, buy regular slingers and archers instead.
- The best ranged units for Pergamon aren't fancy Kretans or fancy Logades but Sphendonetai, their upkeep = 41. :-D

Slinger are not AP anymore but they do have good atack.

The good thing about Kretans is not that they kill a lot more than the others (thought better than toxotai) but that they have better shield and armour what means they ussually win in ranged exchanges. Together with nice atack and morale once out of arrows they can support the front line effectivelly where you most need it. The psiloi are basically useless once out of ammo. You can just entertain enemy units for some time.
I dont know why you assume that you wont allow kretes into mellee when thats what they are made for.

I dont use Logades or peltastai as an skirmisher. I dont even know if theres even possible to use them like that. They have low ammon and charge after launching their javelins. They are my versatile infatry. They cover holes in the line, cover the flanks of hoplites, phalanxes, emergency block for enemy cavalry that was able to pass my line, etc

Slingers have higher atack than archers so theres no need to test to know they will inflict more casualities. Though direct fire is sometimes problematic and can cause notably more casualities to your own troops than the others.
Javelinners are the most damaging ones due to numbers and projectile type. Speccially against big targets like cavalry they seem the best. Their problem is their short range but my experience has shown that a well placed volley can be devastating.
Euzonoi can even go to melee and do something too. And they are still rather cheap.

Dont misunderstand me I do use sphendotai, is just pergamon has quite easy acces to kretans opposed to others and I just prefer those.
I dont udnerstand why sphendotai are so absurdly cheap. They should be more equal o the other psiloi.

A lot of misconceptions about skirmishers here. The primary purpose of skirmishers is to tie up the enemy's skirmishers, not to take down line infantry. If your skirmishers are targeting armoured and/or shielded units, you're wasting their ammunition. That none of them are terribly effective against such targets (especially from the front) is by design.

Psiloi aren't supposed to be effective melee combatants - they're barely-trained levies with no armour and often no better weapon than a knife. That's the reason they're so cheap. Slingers are even cheaper because their units are smaller than other levies.

Kretan archers have a pretty significant advantage over regular Toxotai: their range is quite a bit longer. They're also much more useful when out of ammo, since they're effective in melee.

The most effective place for a javelin volley is from behind a unit. They're not supposed to be able to stop a charge of line infantry, and certainly aren't intended to wipe them out either. If you're throwing them at a unit coming towards you, that's the very worst place to be doing it from, so it's hardly surprising that it's ineffective. The animation is realistic, you need the momentum of a run-up to impart a poweful throw.

Javelin cavalry was broken in 2.03k because of the adjustment to the skirmishing distance to accomodate horse archers. Unfortunately, CA only provided one value for all skirmish cavalry, what's a nice distance to ensure horse archers can stay beyond the range of a charge is too far for javelineers to be able to throw. In 2.04 that's been reduced; but it will mean horse archers are more likely to get caught off-guard.

There's an intentional balance between javelins and arrows/slingshot. You have to get closer, but they're more damaging. Again you have to be in the right place, and preferably not against line infantry.

Again in custom battle:
1. Basic slingers vs basic archers => slingers win with ease despite smaller size.
2. Basic slingers vs kretans => slingers are winning until they run out of ammo. Then Kretans own them.
3. Logades+Hoplitai vs Dorks => I engage Dorks vs my Hoplite, position Logades behind Dorks. They throw one volley, kill 10-12 Dorks. Then they charge which I cannot stop as their run-up to throw is a part of that charge. One Logades gets stuck between the crowd of Dorks. I can not throw another volley (forced melee when one of ranged unit engaged in melee).
4. It's even harder to do with Akontistai or Euzonoi. AI is taught to pull back and regroup for another charge. Huge skirmisher units that must throw javelins at close range will get caught during their run-up into melee and then you can no longer use the unit for throwing at enemy's backs until your frantic clicks "free it".
5. Slingers+Hoplitai vs Dorks => I engage Hoplitai vs Dorks. Position slingers behind enemy, order to throw at their backs. My Slingers kill as many of my own Hoplitai as of enemy's. Casualties inflicted on enemy still higher on the side of Hoplites than of my Slingers at the end.
6. Phalangitai + 2x Slingers + 2x Archers vs Phalangitai. I position ranged units behind my phalanx. Enemy phalanx marches forward, they shoot at them. They kill 80% of the enemy unit before it reaches my line. Basic ranged units with upkeeps like 40/turn throwing at the front of a phalanx in formation. Slinger have killed 2x more than archers, at the end.

Summarising:
- Being behind enemy line and throwing at their backs means they will obliterate your own infantry as much as enemy. You need to realize how weak frontal armour is on an average 19 defence heavy unit?
- Logades and other javelin units are useless in their function of getting behind enemy and throwing at his backs. Bigger the battle (and chaos) more useless they become.
- The best place for your skirmishers is behind your line, throwing at key units of advancing enemy army to take them out of equation. Focus fire on what you want enemy to lose and you'll win the battle. Try acrobatics of throwing at enemy backs and you'll lose your skirmishers as much as have them waste ammo on killing friendlies. They aren't fast enough or accurate enough for this.

[QuintusSertorius]

Peltastai Logades and Kretan Peltastai aren't skirmishers. They're assault infantry. They only have one javelin, not a collection of them for sustained volleys. They are also precursor-throwers - they throw their javelins, then charge. Unlike the actual skirmishers, Akontistai and Euzonoi, who don't charge after throwing.

Kretan Archers will beat slingers if you make use of their biggest advantage: range. Kretans can kill slingers before slingers can reach them. Combined arms is the means to ensure the slingers can't get close enough - light cavalry are good for pushing slingers away, even if you don't attack them.

Slingers fire in a flat trajectory, so of course they will hit your own men if you position them behind them. Slingers have to be placed on a flank or out front if you want to avoid friendly fire. This is another advantage of archers - you can put them behind your line, and benefit from the bodies of the line infantry in front of them for protection.

As you identified, slinger-fire is quite powerful. The safest place for them is on the unshielded flank, if you must fire at line infantry.

[Jervaj]

Yeah. I think Kreatns are really underrated to due to their low atack. But indirect fire and long range is agreadt advaantage in my opinion. And their shield and armour makes them having very few loses in ranged exchanges agaisnt another units. Plus been a solid unit in mele once out of ammo is just great. You have to pay it though.

Also what QS said in the other thread. For line infantry, skirmirshers are more an annoyance than a threat unles is very properly placed in which case you can have great results.

I dont understand why you keep seeing Logades and Peltastai as skirmishers. The gact that they launch a javeling before engaging doesnt make them so xD

[MisterFred]

I dont understand why you keep seeing Logades and Peltastai as skirmishers. The gact that they launch a javeling before engaging doesnt make them so xD

Peltasts with the same art were elite skirmishers in EB1. They were actually pretty overpowered. I was actually assuming their EB2 classification as heavy infantry was a mistake until just recently . Also, Kretan Peltasts die pretty darn quickly in a straight-up melee. So I assumed they weren't melee infantry.

And don't knock jav cav. There's some good use there. For one, if you don't have access to heavy cavalry, you can use cheaper light cavalry to swarm the enemy. And javelins hurt, particularly against enemy heavy cavalry with no shields (send a unit of fast cavalry to pin an enemy, dump your javelins on the enemy, then charge from the back with the jav cav. Now you've cleaned up a flank for pretty low cost & still have units in position to decimate routers.) Also, if you can time it right, you can pull enemy cavalry far from the battle while whittling them down with your javelins when they give chase. Sometimes you can even get a lucky general assassination.

[Jervaj]

I tend no to use it because the factions I play the most they are too bad at melee, and with the skirmishing not working for them, they needed a lot of micro and it seemed not worth it.

But I do use indeed the ones that can act as cavalry while launching javelins. For example I find very useful the italian allied cavalry when playing rome. I use them over the roman one most times. Its easy to atack infantry from where it hurts and then charge into them once they are weakened and disordered.

[Ryze]

Would anyone be so kind as to make or point out a video about the proper use of skirmishers in massive battles?

I'm sure there are videos about it on other Total War games, but the skirmishers' effectiveness in such videos is immediately questionable given the lack of proper historical considerations... EB2 is a much better platform for such videos