Testudo Alternative?

**Kravixon01** · July 20, 2015, 01:06 PM

I've seen in the FAQ and elsewhere that the testudo formation is unable to be implemented due to engine limitations. However, what about a workaround that still provides the same game play function?

The other M2TW total conversion that I play is Third Age:Total war. Some units, particularly Dwarven infantry, have the ability to form a shield wall. Basically, the units stand much closer together, move much slower, but gain defense and don't allow enemy units to push into the formation. The same kind of thing could be used as a "testudo" formation for EBII infantry. Units could form the tight formation, with the effect of slower speed, increased defense against missiles, and maybe reduced attack.

The soldiers would stand close together, although they would not raise their shields above their heads. However, the stat changes would provide the same effect, resulting in an abstraction of the formation. I, for one, would gladly accept a game play feature even if the animation is not fully implemented.

Any thoughts?

**Kravixon01** · July 20, 2015, 01:08 PM

Also, I recognize that it's low priority compared to incomplete rosters. This is just a discussion of the possibility, not a demand for the next release

**Boogie Knight** · July 20, 2015, 01:34 PM

I'm a TATW player and I've used that shieldwall feature a couple of times. I don't know what your experiences of it were, but it's known to be quite buggy.

My own experience of using it was with the dwarves in MOS 1.7, in which the shieldwalled dwarves continually shuffled about, seemingly pushing against one another. This 'shuffling' caused the unit to slowly but surely walk forwards. Now as I say it's quite slow, but this would cause it to break formation and abandon its place in whatever line you'd arrayed. I can't remember which thread it was in exactly, but not long ago I was reading something by someone relaying their experience of having all their shieldwalled units arrayed separately in their line and watching in horror as they advanced forwards and were quickly surrounded by the advancing enemy.

I agree that the shieldwall function could be a good one if schiltrom isn't to people's liking (only real alternative IMO) but it needs work.

**Kravixon01** · July 20, 2015, 01:44 PM

I've been pretty successful with it as the dwarves. I find that they need to be in guard mode to prevent breaking formation when attacking. EBII infantry already defaults to guard mode as is. It's at least a good starting point, imo.

**Boogie Knight** · July 20, 2015, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kravixon01

I've been pretty successful with it as the dwarves. I find that they need to be in guard mode to prevent breaking formation when attacking. EBII infantry already defaults to guard mode as is. It's at least a good starting point, imo.

Have you only attacked with it so far? What have your experiences been with it when holding a line? Does it not perform the 'shuffling' I talked about?

**Kravixon01** · July 25, 2015, 04:14 PM

I don't recall having the same shuffling issue. I just use it for attacking; right clicking behind the enemy unit, and then ordering an attack on the enemy unit once the dwarves are already pushed into their unit. It's very effective at pushing your way in during siege battles or moving into a group of archers. [Also, I don't know if you've checked back on the MOS thread in the last couple months, but they've got a new update from the end of April]

However, in EBII, we wouldn't really need it to hold a line. Testudo would mainly be used simply to shield from missile fire on the approach towards the enemy lines or enemy walls.

This thread hasn't gotten a lot of other replies, so let's discuss Testudo alternatives in general. Would the players & makers of this mod be in favor of a unit formation that performs the same function if it lacks the full animations? Or does that go against the EBII ethos? I'm amazed by the attention to detail with all of the units themselves, and it seems that the creators prefer to create content in excellence and wait until it's finished rather than use placeholders.

**Boogie Knight** · July 26, 2015, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kravixon01

I don't recall having the same shuffling issue. I just use it for attacking; right clicking behind the enemy unit, and then ordering an attack on the enemy unit once the dwarves are already pushed into their unit. It's very effective at pushing your way in during siege battles or moving into a group of archers.

My inner medievalist is flailing like a beached fish at that concept; that plain old shouldn't work.

ANYWAY. Let's move on before I have an aneurysm. Is it possible to give units a stat boost mid-battle in that way?

**delra** · July 26, 2015, 03:41 AM

To be honest, Testudo would be damn useless in battle anyway. How often do you ever lose any of your heavy infantry to arrow fire? How many battles have you lost because your heavy line crumbled under projectile fire? Zero. :-)

What Romans most fear is not arrows, especially from crappy skirmishing units, what they worry about is a direct cavalry charge sending their swordsmen flying in the air in all directions. And Testudo would presumably be even more vulnerable to this than regular formations.

How often fighting against Romans do you think: "Let's kill their heavies with arrows" and how often you think "Punch through the middle with heavy cavalry, then mop them losers up"?

**Sar1n** · July 27, 2015, 05:52 PM

Testudo is one of things about Roman military that's been disproportionately popularized, like LS. In reality, Roman more commonly used shieldwall-like tactics. The popular, mobile version of testudo was used almost exclusively in sieges.

**delra** · July 27, 2015, 06:14 PM

Ukrainian police playing Romans during Maidan protests, btw:

:-D

Makes me wonder if Roman testudo was alway such an orderly square or rectangle as we picture it. Cause in actual battle it'd probably be more like this above, some soldiers raising their shields above their heads in order to protect from above, while the unit was actually deployed in whatever disorderly line the battle and the terrain would shape them into.

If you didn't need soldiers to form square/rectangle for testudo, but only had to animate shields of deeper ranks being raised above, you probably could do it, right? I assume there'd be no way of adding extra projectile protection to the formation though?

**The excited one** · July 27, 2015, 08:15 PM

go back to rome 2 total war OP

**Kravixon01** · July 28, 2015, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by The excited one

go back to rome 2 total war OP

Gee, thanks for the warm welcome and for providing such constructive feedback.

Delra, interesting idea about raised shields without the unit forming the square. I don't know what the reason that testudo wouldn't function in M2TW. The FAQ doesn't say what the issue was, I just assumed it would be the shield raising animation.

**Jervaj** · July 28, 2015, 04:36 AM

In rome 2 (at least when I played it) you didnt really need much testudo. Units automatically raised their shields against missile fire if oriented properly. I remember the starting hoplites been almost impervious to it xD