Impact of slain generals/captains

**anonymous_(\)008** · July 20, 2015, 06:01 AM

Has the moral penalty suffered because of the slain or routed generals/captains been increased in this mod? I've noticed many times that whole full stacks would just rout on contact once i killed their commander; and i'm not talking about long drawn out field battles where you finally managed to kill the general after a substantial melee session. I'm talking about battles, say, where i used jav cavs to take out enemy generals early in the battle; early, as in, archers-haven't-even-engaged-yet early. The general dies, the two battle lines meet and then the AI just insta routs. Is this considered historically accurate?? it kinda takes something away from the game

**Duck of Death** · July 20, 2015, 07:55 AM

Maybe not always historically accurate,
But a lot of times an army (in a battle that could go either way) with a particularly strong or respected leader would rout upon seeing their commander go down.
In many cases, they were poor or conscripted soldiers who were only fighting for the pay that that general had promised them or the service that they owed him.
This was probably more true in Feudal systems.

In some cases, this would backfire though. In cases where the soldiers were really fighting for a cause they believed in, seeing their general die would embolden them to fight even harder to avenge him.

And, in some cases, the general's death wouldn't make much difference at all on the outcome. The 2nd in command would step up and they army goes right on fighting like normal.

**RexTrust** · July 20, 2015, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Duck of Death

In some cases, this would backfire though. In cases where the soldiers were really fighting for a cause they believed in, seeing their general die would embolden them to fight even harder to avenge him.

That is an interesting thought: would it be possible to implement, that if an crusader/jihad army loses its general in battle, they get an morale-boost?

**RexTrust** · July 20, 2015, 08:47 AM

Or perhaps a trait, that says "if the general gets killed in battle, his army gets a morale-boost". Perhaps for generals who are renowed in war or faction leaders with high chivalry?

**paleologos** · July 20, 2015, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Duck of Death

In some cases, this would backfire though. In cases where the soldiers were really fighting for a cause they believed in, seeing their general die would embolden them to fight even harder to avenge him.

I don't know many such cases, but then again I am not a historian.
I remeber having read about two such occasions, the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains and the Battle of Hazir.

In the first case the Visigothic King Theodoric I was slain by the Huns and his troops started fighting much more fiercly, but their army was not alone (without allies) on the battlefield.
The battle of the Catalaunian fields was tactically inconclusive but a strategic victoty for the Romans and their Germanic allies.

In the second case the Byzantine commander Menas, an accomplished commander and very popular among his troops, was slain during the early stages of the battle.
His troops went into a "frenzy" but were eventually defeated.

I think that if this kind of event is to be simulated it should probably be possible only with very popular generals and the troops should become not only more "courageous" but also "impetuous" (charge without orders), making them very hard to command after the demise of their general.

**LuckyPistol** · July 20, 2015, 09:25 PM

I found this to be true more for Rebel armies, but I believe if the battle is already really in your favor, even from the start, then the general death is the final nail in the coffin for most units.

**Deteriorate** · July 21, 2015, 12:26 AM

I think the impact of the Ai general dying should have a much lesser impact on Ai morale.
Currently it has a huge impact, and because the idiot Ai charges the general in first, the general has superhuman buffs.
The alternative is a lesser morale impact with lowered buffs.

It would make the battle more strategy based on the enemy army's unit composition and placement, than say, battlefield assassinating the enemy general with jav cav every battle, then mop up. Does anyone have experience playing with mods that have tried this? The enemy generals will die more often, but they get spawned generals anyways?

**anonymous_(\)008** · July 21, 2015, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by Deteriorate

I think the impact of the Ai general dying should have a much lesser impact on Ai morale.
Currently it has a huge impact, and because the idiot Ai charges the general in first, the general has superhuman buffs.
The alternative is a lesser morale impact with lowered buffs.

It would make the battle more strategy based on the enemy army's unit composition and placement, than say, battlefield assassinating the enemy general with jav cav every battle, then mop up. Does anyone have experience playing with mods that have tried this? The enemy generals will die more often, but they get spawned generals anyways?

Is it too hard to mod out the suicidal general from the battle AI? it's really frustrating.. well anyway, i like your idea, i've pondered about it myself. Also, is there a submod that nerfs the SS cavalry a little bit? Their charge power should be nerfed a bit, not for historical accuracy, but for a more balanced gameplay. They are just too strong; as of now, the only thing i worry about before attacking an enemy army is whether it has heavy cavalry or not. Another submod i'd like to see is one that buffs heavy infantry and professional spearmen to better withstand both cavalry and infantry charges. It was implemented in the Crusades campaign if i remember correctly. Just try charging a fresh Saracen Militia with hospitaller knights, they wouldn't even budge, you need to whittle them down with missiles or charge them from the flanks, etc; on the other hand, if i recall correctly, the cavs were nerfed a bit in the campaign..

**Arakorn** · July 21, 2015, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by anonymous_(\)008

Is it too hard to mod out the suicidal general from the battle AI? it's really frustrating.. well anyway, i like your idea, i've pondered about it myself. Also, is there a submod that nerfs the SS cavalry a little bit? Their charge power should be nerfed a bit, not for historical accuracy, but for a more balanced gameplay. They are just too strong; as of now, the only thing i worry about before attacking an enemy army is whether it has heavy cavalry or not. Another submod i'd like to see is one that buffs heavy infantry and professional spearmen to better withstand both cavalry and infantry charges. It was implemented in the Crusades campaign if i remember correctly. Just try charging a fresh Saracen Militia with hospitaller knights, they wouldn't even budge, you need to whittle them down with missiles or charge them from the flanks, etc; on the other hand, if i recall correctly, the cavs were nerfed a bit in the campaign..

Agreed. The suicidally charging general is actually the only thing I worry about in battles now, they cause a ridicolous number of casualties. There just is no way of countering it even with bracing spearmen. Any way to lower this a bit?