AI during sieges

[GenPatton]

Put simply I think there are several things that are making it too easy for the Player to defend against the AI, in fact it needs to be at least a 2v1 for it to have any chance of winning.

The first thing I want to talk about is also a sugestion about a siege engine and some defensive stance animations perhaps.
With simple crossbowmen or good archer units along the walls one can reduce the enemy forces sometimes by 50% by the time the ram has breached the gate. It's silly to watch the enemy just standing outside the walls idle, under constant fire. I know there were these wooden things used in medieval sieges that were called "Mantlets" which would offer protection from arrows.

Links:
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/phot...gYFWJ5y8wT.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantlet

Would this be a good thing to add to the game if possible? How would it work ingame, both at the siege scroll on the campaign map when one has to pick the siege equipments one wants to build or in the battle map itself, is something that I’m trying to imagine. I guess that like ladders, one “mantlet unit” should offer 3 or 4 “mantlets” to be used by one foot unit. But for this to be significantly effective, idealy all foot units that aren’t using the other siege equipments should have one “mantlet unit”, otherwise one can just target the units that don’t have it’s protection. Cavalry then should be out of missile range and move in when the gate is open. About the slots in the siege scroll on the campaign map, i figure that one should only have to use one slot for the “mantlets” and that would mean that the game would automatically assign all foot units that aren’t using rams, towers or ladders to have each one a “mantlet unit”. What you guys think?

About the defensive stance animations that I mentioned, would it be possible to make the soldiers that are using ladders, towers and rams to somehow have their shields upwards simulating them covering themselves from the arrows? I mean it’s also silly that they just walk to the walls indiferent to the fact that they are under fire.

Another issue is when missile units get assigned to a siege equipment, when there are plenty of melee units left.

And worst is when low units get assigned to a ladder equipment and then instead of that unit carrying 4 ladders to the walls it only carries 1 or 2. Is this something that could be fixed?

About situations when it’s 2v1 but the 2nd AI army has no siege equipments. They shouldn’t stand on the other side of the map waiting until the 1st army breaches the gate or the walls. Isn’t it possible to make the 2nd army automatically move next to the 1st army when the battle starts and use some units to climb ladders and towers that reached the wall so they can help out asap?

Thoughts ?

PS: there is something dumb that is allowed to happen, there is no way one can destroy a wood or stone wall with mangonels, but regardless of that the game allows to auto-resolve siege battles with them. Can’t this be fixed?

[MWY]

Pretty much nothing you suggest can be implemented. Good ideas nevertheless.

[GenPatton]

Damn... that made me sad. XD

[dahooscarl]

Is there a file I can edit to let the AI use siege artillery?

[Macaras]

AI uses the artillery AFAIK, maybe you mean AI to be able to produce and use artillery earlier in the game?
Besides that there is a special script coming in the next version. Players units will mostly rout when trying to sally out when defending a siege. So the way to defend will be to stay inside the castle and wait for the siege machines to approach. That will make exploiting the engine weakness almost completely obsolete (maybe some smart players will find some situations when ram may be stopped), and will make defending much more difficult and interesting.

[eyelurker]

AI uses the artillery AFAIK, maybe you mean AI to be able to produce and use artillery earlier in the game?
Besides that there is a special script coming in the next version. Players units will mostly rout when trying to sally out when defending a siege. So the way to defend will be to stay inside the castle and wait for the siege machines to approach. That will make exploiting the engine weakness almost completely obsolete (maybe some smart players will find some situations when ram may be stopped), and will make defending much more difficult and interesting.

I will just fight them in the field then. Or in the wall if the enemy fancy dying and actually storm the wall.

[Sllhouette]

sorry general patton but what you've described are all issues with not SSHIP but medieval 2 itself. plenty of players have had the same concerns as you. some things were addressed in later games, like in rome 2 soldiers lift up their shields and can hide much better from arrow fire. you should try playing medieval 2 online against human players, who will be extremely difficult to defend against even if you're in a castle. the AI has armies that should win, and get outplayed with the same moves everytime

[Sllhouette]

AI uses the artillery AFAIK, maybe you mean AI to be able to produce and use artillery earlier in the game?
Besides that there is a special script coming in the next version. Players units will mostly rout when trying to sally out when defending a siege. So the way to defend will be to stay inside the castle and wait for the siege machines to approach. That will make exploiting the engine weakness almost completely obsolete (maybe some smart players will find some situations when ram may be stopped), and will make defending much more difficult and interesting.

as much as i hated how AI would recruit way too much siege artillery into their field armies, i kind of miss having to defend against it. wall-scaling attacks is okay for early europe, but siege tactics got more sophisticated quickly and its not good when advanced enemies are attacking giant citadels with basic ladders all the time. i read that SSHIP disables AI from recruiting siege right?

and as much as i hate how easy it is to sally out with your generals and cavalry to mess up the AI siege equipment and cheapen the battle...forcing the player's units to rout when sallying out just erases sallying out completely as a tactic. its a viable siege defense tactic. i just wish it didnt melt the AI's brain. so many complicated problems

[eyelurker]

and as much as i hate how easy it is to sally out with your generals and cavalry to mess up the AI siege equipment and cheapen the battle...forcing the player's units to rout when sallying out just erases sallying out completely as a tactic. its a viable siege defense tactic. i just wish it didnt melt the AI's brain. so many complicated problems

Wait is that why you hate it? It cheapen the games in a sense because Ai are not designed to think the battle as a raid. Only win or lose, offense or defense.

If by some miracle one could make an ai sally out to destroy siege equipment or raiding your army, in a fun way of course i would have played it. It makes if the ai sally out to attack for real more suprising.

[Jurand of Cracow]

as much as i hated how AI would recruit way too much siege artillery into their field armies, i kind of miss having to defend against it. wall-scaling attacks is okay for early europe, but siege tactics got more sophisticated quickly and its not good when advanced enemies are attacking giant citadels with basic ladders all the time. i read that SSHIP disables AI from recruiting siege right?
and as much as i hate how easy it is to sally out with your generals and cavalry to mess up the AI siege equipment and cheapen the battle...forcing the player's units to rout when sallying out just erases sallying out completely as a tactic. its a viable siege defense tactic. i just wish it didnt melt the AI's brain. so many complicated problems

There're three types of engines in the SSHIP (and the Med2 engine in general):
- siege equipment,
- non-powder artillery,
- powder artillery.

I.
Siege equipment is build by the sieging army on the spot: ladders, rams and siege towers. These are not units, but equipment for the units that scale the walls. So called "siege points" play a role here. It can be modded, I've planned it some years ago - see here.
II.
Non-powder artillery were used in the Middle Ages mainly to scare the settlement, not to destroy the walls (see here). The trebuches or catapults would throw missiles (sometimes fancy ones, like dead horses) into a city to provoke fear and make the defenders surrender. Due to the type of historica simulation/game the Med2 is, they should not be present in the game. It's one of the main reasons they should be disabled as separate units. Additionally, the AI fought with them field battles. This is the second reason. However, the players liked the unit, and I'm in general very conservative with removing something that is in the game, so the middle way is: the AI cannot recruit them, the player can, but they're available in very limited numbers and are very slow, so hopefully a player will use them very rarely.
III.
The cannons were the way to bring down the walls in the Late Middle Ages. They are in the game as they were in the base StainlessSteel.

JoC

[j.a.luna]

Jurand, is it possible to add casualties due to diseases or pests to the besiegers? This happened very commonly in medieval camps and they even had to withdraw from sieges because troops died from dysentery, plague or other diseases...I mean, for example, if the siege army spends more than 4 or 5 turns besieging, ( also AI) there is a greater chance that his army will be depleted due to contracting diseases and even his general will die because of it... is it possible to do it for sship?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Jurand, is it possible to add casualties due to diseases or pests to the besiegers? This happened very commonly in medieval camps and they even had to withdraw from sieges because troops died from dysentery, plague or other diseases...I mean, for example, if the siege army spends more than 4 or 5 turns besieging, ( also AI) there is a greater chance that his army will be depleted due to contracting diseases and even his general will die because of it... is it possible to do it for sship?

I was equally interested in this mechanism, and this one unfortunatelly doesn't exists in the Med2 engine

[Sllhouette]

Wait is that why you hate it? It cheapen the games in a sense because Ai are not designed to think the battle as a raid. Only win or lose, offense or defense.

If by some miracle one could make an ai sally out to destroy siege equipment or raiding your army, in a fun way of course i would have played it. It makes if the ai sally out to attack for real more suprising.

yes i hate it because they're not smart enough to understand what you're doing and you win when you shouldn't. i've ruined a battering ram party, and then the AI forces their entire army into one ladder section. i win, and it feels cheap.

sallying out should be a totally viable tactic, but they need to make good AI that can handle it. i always see tons of cavalry nearby, and they never try to stop my harassment. if i knew their cavalry would even come close to me, i would stay inside, it should be a risk/reward situation. instead, its all reward, 0 risk.

another thing i don't like about medieval 2 can't do right is battle skirmishing. i would love to wear down an enemy through guerilla tactics or harassment, but every battle is only win or loss, no draw. people would use ambush more often with small armies, like real history, if they weren't forced into life/death each time. i guess you could manually retreat the field after using all your arrows, but the game treats you as a loser, and your general starts feeling like a loser... sallying out in siege battles, even if its a failure, why does everyone die? the survivors just run back inside the gates. the siege continues, except the attackers are greatly weakened, there's a proper risk/reward and strategy.

[kostic]

All these questions are fascinating and we would dream of an AI that does not destabilize when an exit stops its ram, a tower or a ladder...
@Macaras' solution of making exits impossible is not necessarily satisfactory because it reduces the strategy possibilities for the player.
On the other hand, defeating the AI ​​because it sends all its troops down a single ladder instead of taking back the ram is indeed unsatisfactory.
I'm curious to test @Macaras' solution (in the next version?)

- I love the ideas in this thread. Unfortunately, I don't think any modder knew how to implement these protections for besiegers called "mantelets" in French.


- The attribution of the scales and the ram is indeed sometimes bad. That said, all the player has to do is detach the accessory from the unit and choose another in exchange.


- Perhaps in fact the AI ​​could be reworked so that the cavalry intervenes in the event of an exit on these pedestrians once the ladders are in place...

[eyelurker]

Yeah not being able to sally out is kinda silly when you have an entire army in the city. What are you supposed to do if your full army are just happened to be trapped in the city? Ai can and will starve out settlement they feel that it couldn't be taken directly raather than assault.

[Macaras]

All these questions are fascinating and we would dream of an AI that does not destabilize when an exit stops its ram, a tower or a ladder...
@Macaras' solution of making exits impossible is not necessarily satisfactory because it reduces the strategy possibilities for the player.
On the other hand, defeating the AI ​​because it sends all its troops down a single ladder instead of taking back the ram is indeed unsatisfactory.
I'm curious to test @Macaras' solution (in the next version?)

- I love the ideas in this thread. Unfortunately, I don't think any modder knew how to implement these protections for besiegers called "mantelets" in French.


- The attribution of the scales and the ram is indeed sometimes bad. That said, all the player has to do is detach the accessory from the unit and choose another in exchange.


- Perhaps in fact the AI ​​could be reworked so that the cavalry intervenes in the event of an exit on these pedestrians once the ladders are in place...

Yeah not being able to sally out is kinda silly when you have an entire army in the city. What are you supposed to do if your full army are just happened to be trapped in the city? Ai can and will starve out settlement they feel that it couldn't be taken directly raather than assault.

I agree with you guys, its unsatisfactory. But I was asking for a long time in many threads and nobody was able to find a solution to this problem of sallying out. I think bitterhowl was working on a better solution, but I didn't see any post announcing success so far. With my script sally out in general is possible, it is just not possible to do it in the first phase of the game when the siege engines are marching. It is usually lone one, two units that are send to attack so them routing may seem credible, I don't know.. I was thinking about some conditions that would make it more realistic, like number or archer units for example. But the outcome is that the player is confused, why sometimes it routs and sometimes not..

The cavalry intervening would be great, but the problem is that it's enough the defenders sallying unit touches the ram and they drop it and starts melee fight, and then never take it back. So cavalry would intervene too late.

[Sllhouette]

if only there was some kind of parameter or code that the AI makes sure to escort siege equipment with units or cavalry, and detects if the player is getting too close. like in field battles, they'll counter your cavalry when you approach. it sounds so simple on paper, but im sure there's so many code complications for you guys or the engine just isn't good enough

[dahooscarl]

[QUOTE=Macaras;16152983]AI uses the artillery AFAIK, maybe you mean AI to be able to produce and use artillery earlier in the game?

Yes that. I've sank at least 50 hrs in and haven't seen the AI build or use one catapult or trebuchet. Is there a certain year or turn number when they start using artillery? I don't think I've played a campaign past 1230. I thought I read that was a deliberate design choice but I could be mistaken. Otherwise fantastic work on the mod. I haven't been this into M2 in well over a decade.

[Jurand of Cracow]

[QUOTE=dahooscarl;16153872]

AI uses the artillery AFAIK, maybe you mean AI to be able to produce and use artillery earlier in the game?

Yes that. I've sank at least 50 hrs in and haven't seen the AI build or use one catapult or trebuchet. Is there a certain year or turn number when they start using artillery? I don't think I've played a campaign past 1230. I thought I read that was a deliberate design choice but I could be mistaken. Otherwise fantastic work on the mod. I haven't been this into M2 in well over a decade.

AI cannot build pre-powder artillery, it's a feature.

[dahooscarl]

[QUOTE=Jurand of Cracow;16153957]

AI cannot build pre-powder artillery, it's a feature.

I see. Is there a file I can edit to allow them to? Without it, defensive sieges are getting a bit repetitive and I was hoping to stream the mod on my channel.