Roman offices system is 95% annoying

[delra]

So I have to pull my governors and generals from their duties and send them back to Rome to spend endless turns there to be elected for some crappy office? Oh, and while at that, I have to repeat that over and over again as their office terms end and they need to be reelected? :-)

It might be historical and cool and all that, but is this fun for anyone? It's mostly annoying me into quitting the whole Roman game thing and starting with someone else. I can't bear playing Rome with all the micromanagement hassle this causes.

My suggestion, allow people to be elected while away from Rome. Or at least allow them to be elected after 1 turn in Rome rather than a full year?

[QuintusSertorius]

It is precisely how it was in reality. Including the annoyance of having to get back to Rome if you wanted to stand for office.

This isn't going to change, and you've already identified the solution if it really bugs you: play another faction.

[Roma_Victrix]

It is precisely how it was in reality. Including the annoyance of having to get back to Rome if you wanted to stand for office.

This isn't going to change, and you've already identified the solution if it really bugs you: play another faction.

That would be all fine and dandy if the generals were able to move across huge swaths of the map in 1 turn (each one representing four months or 1/4 of a year; in reality it only took a matter of weeks to sail across the Mediterranean back to Rome). In either case, if you guys aren't going to change this, then I guess someone who's fed up with the rules can simply bypass them. You all know what I'm talking about.

~ give_trait "[insert general's name here]" "[insert trait name for elected Roman office here]"

[Darkan]

Or at least allow them to be elected after 1 turn in Rome rather than a full year?

It is after 1 turn, it just has to be the winter-spring turn.

[Casual Tactician]

It is after 1 turn, it just has to be the winter-spring turn.

That's good to know.

I can understand delra's concerns, the offices system was one of the reasons I never really played the Romani in EB1 (also I prefere playing Hellenistic factions or Carthage most of the time, with a "barbarian" campaign every blue moon). But after having a look at the Romani campaign in EB2, it seems all I have to do, is send the generals back to Rome once they get the "eligible for..."-trait. Right?! That doesn't seem to complicated...
Or are there other things to consider/micro-manage (later on)? Like exchanging ancilleries, having generals outside settlements for x turns, having a certain number of battles fought, acquired certain traits or attribute ratings etc...?

Though later on with a large empire, lots of generals and greater distances to Rome the increased micro-managment might bug me. I'll see... anyhow I like the flavour, the offices system gives the Roman faction.

PS: A movement bonus sounds quite handy for larger Romani empires, if it's not to heavy on the script or bug-producing.


Regards!

[nvm]

But even in the beginning, you're better off moving there before the turn because of the winter restriction.

I think what could be done is institute a movement point bonus for the office eligibility traits. Imperium penalty could be then increased, although thepenalty can be really debilitating as it is if you try your luck. (-5 morale combined from both imperium relinquished and having no battle experience your troops don't have good/very good morale traits like the barbarians, and maybe throw in supply trait/unsure troops? You'd be better off using a captain, but that's kinda gaming it) But if you are really determined, even this won't be able to stop you. Except maybe the bloody Carthaginians. Argh...

[delra]

Yea, at least a movement bonus pretty please.

[QuintusSertorius]

One thing that does need to come in, with regards offices, is that after the Marian reforms, promagistracies can be prorogued (ie extended), rather than automatically terminating after the subsequent year after the year of office is up.

[delra]

It is especially annoying early on, when Romans can't really conquer anything at all without having a governor for that new province who'd keep it from revolting on them. Maybe it's good there are so many obstacles to their conquest, but adding constant movements of governors to Roma and back is a bit too much.

[QuintusSertorius]

It is especially annoying early on, when Romans can't really conquer anything at all without having a governor for that new province who'd keep it from revolting on them. Maybe it's good there are so many obstacles to their conquest, but adding constant movements of governors to Roma and back is a bit too much.

It's a feature of playing the Romans. Other factions have their own vagaries and gameplay considerations which are different. I'd suggest trying those out instead.

[delra]

I don't think that cuts it. This feature gets truly unbearable in the later parts of the game. 200 turns in it's a real nightmare to shuttle all those generals to and from Rome. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, I only find the execution a little annoying.

How about we cut down on the number of offices which require presence in Rome? Only do the whole thing for triumphs and consulships and the likes, while lower offices can be granted even in absentia? This way you'd only need to move a handful of most important characters, ones you'd take special care of, actually remember their names and traits. That'd add to the RPG aspect more than the current system where you watch dozens of characters at once does.

You already do this for some things, consuls become proconsuls without going back, for example.

[QuintusSertorius]

No, that's a different thing entirely. Promagistracies don't require an election, they are an automatic change in status that comes once a senior magistracy ends. After your year of praetorship, you automatically become a propraetor for the following year.

Going back to Rome for election was a vitally important and defining facet of Republican political life. It was only as the system began to break down towards the end of the Republic that you started to get things like men being elected consul despite having held none of the previous offices (Pompey) and so on. As I said, the Marian reform might be a trigger for a change in the way it currently works, but this is working exactly as intended.

[nvm]

Yeah, Numidians don't have a proper method to convert provinces to their main culture or change it, Baktrians have had difficulty for that as well, (although they were thrown a bone recently) Konnon Hellenon can't build colonies, (not that they need to when there's so much of Greek world to expand in) I think it's the same for Epirus. And yet, I feel the Romans have got the worst deal so far. But the real question is:Who is next?

[Mantaprey]

So when the roman generals were fighting wars they had to literally go back to Roma every 2 years? Is that why the empire stuck so close to the Mediterranean, so they could sail back when they had to?

[QuintusSertorius]

Yeah, Numidians don't have a proper method to convert provinces to their main culture or change it, Baktrians have had difficulty for that as well, (although they were thrown a bone recently) Konnon Hellenon can't build colonies, (not that they need to when there's so much of Greek world to expand in) I think it's the same for Epirus. And yet, I feel the Romans have got the worst deal so far. But the real question is:Who is next?

Numidia is a problem.

Baktria simply lack a Metropolis, though the bonus colonists should fix this.

Koinon Hellenon are long past their colonising days, which is why they can't send any. Their mission is to unite all the places with Greek polis' in situ, and they can still upgrade them.

Epeiros can colonise just like the other Hellenistic factions, they just lack a Metropolis at the start (Syrakousai is a viable target for this, being somewhere Pyrrhos was king of for a time).

So when the roman generals were fighting wars they had to literally go back to Roma every 2 years? Is that why the empire stuck so close to the Mediterranean, so they could sail back when they had to?

No, when Roman governors were out in the provinces, they went as pro-magistrates who had at least a year, and were often extended by a vote of the Senate managed by their friends. However, if they were not proconsuls, they'd need to go back after the mandated space of years to stand for the next step in the cursus honorum. Which would again mean a year in office, then at least a year afterwards as a pro-magistrate.

But being stripped of their command, or having their pro-magistracy terminated early might be a consequence of political maneuvering at home, which is why they had to have allies in the Senate looking out for their interests while they were abroad.

[V.T. Marvin]

What can be done to mitigate the tedium without giving up on this core mechanics is to make the first magistracy (quaestorship) available not only in Rome but in all "Ius Latinorum" cities (which is actually already a fact, but not apparent from the trait description, the code is already there) and to make the proconsulships/propraetorships last a bit longer say 1+7 years instead of current 1+4.

[Poppis]

The idea of the offices/requirements changing over time(like maybe after marian reforms) sounds interesting. I haven't actually had a long roman campaign yet so I haven't had any problems with them, but I assume it can get somewhat annoying later on.

Also, imperium only lasts 1+3 years at the moment, because of a discrepancy between the inofficecounter and the "proconsul/propraetor resets after turn expires". The former triggering at the start of a turn while the latter at the end of a turn.

[V.T. Marvin]

Ok, here is what I have just done on the dev build and which, if met with favourable feedback, might be included in the next release:
- Imperium-holding offices (praetor/propraetor and consul/proconsul) now last 1+5 years.
- Quaestorships are granted not only in Rome, but in any "Ius Latinorum" city as well, allowing the youth to start their political career elsewhere in Italy and not all crowding in Rome.
- Legates can now be not only young Equestrians, but Senators as well. Legates are still marked as "Imperium relinquished", but their penalties are largely negated by the positive effects of the "legate" trait. This in effect largely expands the pool of characters available to perform military actions - either accompanying the consular/praetorian army on the main front or just securing the otherwise calm areas (dealing with rebels and occasional foreign invasions).

[QuintusSertorius]

Ok, here is what I have just done on the dev build and which, if met with favourable feedback, might be included in the next release:
- Imperium-holding offices (praetor/propraetor and consul/proconsul) now last 1+5 years.
- Quaestorships are granted not only in Rome, but in any "Ius Latinorum" city as well, allowing the youth to start their political career elsewhere in Italy and not all crowding in Rome.
- Legates can now be not only young Equestrians, but Senators as well. Legates are still marked as "Imperium relinquished", but their penalties are largely negated by the positive effects of the "legate" trait. This in effect largely expands the pool of characters available to perform military actions - either accompanying the consular/praetorian army on the main front or just securing the otherwise calm areas (dealing with rebels and occasional foreign invasions).

When I get back home tomorrow, I'll add it to the latest test build, which will be released as 2.03i.

[Cohors_Evocata]

Ok, here is what I have just done on the dev build and which, if met with favourable feedback, might be included in the next release:
- Imperium-holding offices (praetor/propraetor and consul/proconsul) now last 1+5 years.
- Quaestorships are granted not only in Rome, but in any "Ius Latinorum" city as well, allowing the youth to start their political career elsewhere in Italy and not all crowding in Rome.
- Legates can now be not only young Equestrians, but Senators as well. Legates are still marked as "Imperium relinquished", but their penalties are largely negated by the positive effects of the "legate" trait. This in effect largely expands the pool of characters available to perform military actions - either accompanying the consular/praetorian army on the main front or just securing the otherwise calm areas (dealing with rebels and occasional foreign invasions).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC there are no cities with the Ius Latinorum present at the start of the game and it might therefore take quite some time before this larger area of potential quaestorship becomes available (, as I believe it requires a certain level of cultural conversion). Is that intended? Secondly, could someone please explain to me how and when a character can become a legate? I don't believe I've seen it yet in any Romani campaign I've started so far (, though I will admit I've never really gotten all that far in any of them).