[Discussion - Released v. 1.02] Of the Rings of Power and Other Topics of Middle-earth Lore (Lore Discussion Thread)

[Alkar]

Hello fellow Tolkien fans! Whereas my other thread, Of the Lore of Middle-earth (A Brief Overview of Matters of Lore), contained a brief guide to matters of lore, I have started this thread with the purpose of creating a place where the community can discuss certain topics of lore pertaining to Middle-earth. Topics that I have studied so far will be introduced in this post. Feel free to discuss these topics or add your own topics for discussion! Expect updates and revisions as I have the time, which unfortunately doesn't happen very often anymore. Anyway, enjoy!

Of the Rings of Power


The first section is out! Go to this link to read a totally comprehensive study of the Lore of the Rings, in statement-quote form (so be prepared for lengthiness). Not even Saruman could do better (just kidding ). The only parts missing are the parts from the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien and some other works, very important sources, so it will be far expanded in the future. A better organizational structure is forthcoming as well.

Of the Rings of Power


Of the Nine

This is a work in progress, but the raw quote material is present. When I say the Nine, think the Nine Ringwraiths, or Nazgul, whichever you prefer.


Of the Nine


Once again, here is the link to my other lore thread: Of the Lore of Middle-earth (A Brief Overview of Matters of Lore). Feel free to drop by and take a look or start a conversation! I would very much appreciate comments!

[Vikus van de Merwe]

Since most of the team members are involved into the more technical stuff which has to be done, it may not be possible for the team itself to discuss the full complexity of the Middle-Earth lore atm.
However, later it'll give use a nice source of information to fall back to if we're unsure in certain things.

Maybe this thread should be renamed into "Middle-Earth Lore Discussion" which I can stick so we have a place to discuss the lore, too? While reading in the other threads it seems that this place is still missing in this forum.

[Alkar]

Since most of the team members are involved into the more technical stuff which has to be done, it may not be possible for the team itself to discuss the full complexity of the Middle-Earth lore atm.
However, later it'll give use a nice source of information to fall back to if we're unsure in certain things.

Maybe this thread should be renamed into "Middle-Earth Lore Discussion" which I can stick so we have a place to discuss the lore, too? While reading in the other threads it seems that this place is still missing in this forum.

Sounds good.

[Alkar]

Updated version 0.2.

[♔atthias♔]

hello alkar I have a question can I discuss lore here?
many thanks in advance
greetings atthias

[Alkar]

hello alkar I have a question can I discuss lore here?
many thanks in advance
greetings atthias

By all means.

[♔atthias♔]

By all means.

okay
greetings atthias

[Alkar]

Feel free to start a discussion!

[♔atthias♔]

let me be the first to start a discussion\question
gandalf defeated durin's bane but maiar cannot really destroyed can they?
thus why took the balrog not again form and hunt the dwarves again?
greetings atthias

[Alkar]

let me be the first to start a discussion\question
gandalf defeated durin's bane but maiar cannot really destroyed can they?
thus why took the balrog not again form and hunt the dwarves again?
greetings atthias

A very interesting question, I'm glad you brought that up. Yes, the Balrog was considered a Maiar (similar to Sauron, but less powerful) by Tolkien in the latter stages of his life, and thus he had more power than the comparatively weaker Balrogs of The Silmarillion. This also meant that the Balrog was actually a spirit of the angelic order which had took upon himself a terrible and dark form (like Sauron). Once the Balrog's physical form was created, it was subject to all the perils of the world, and could be destroyed. However, once the physical form was destroyed, the Balrog could create a new one. However, this process was very slow, and only got slower each time a new form had to be created. One of Tolkien's letters on Sauron and the angelic order bears heavily on this topic, which I will include here for cross-examination:

I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished. The theory, if one can dignify the modes of the story with such a term, is that he was a spirit, a minor one but still an 'angelic' spirit. According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'. They were allowed to do so, and the great among them became the equivalent of the 'gods' of traditional mythologies; but a condition was that they would remain 'in it' until the Story was finished. They were thus in the world, but not of a kind whose essential nature is to be physically incarnate. They were self-incarnated, if they wished; but their incarnate forms were more analogous to our clothes than to our bodies, except that they were more than are clothes the expression of their desires, moods, wills and functions. Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds). Some had attached themselves to such major artists and knew things chiefly indirectly through their knowledge of the minds of these masters. Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator. Olórin (Vol II p. 279) had been attached to Manwë.1 The Creator did not hold himself aloof. He introduced new themes into the original design, which might therefore be unforeseen by many of the spirits in realization; there were also unforeseeable events (that is happenings which not even a complete knowledge of the past could predict). Of the first kind and the chief was the theme of the incarnate intelligence, Elves and Men, which was not thought of nor treated by any of the Spirits. They were therefore called the Children of God. Being other than the Spirits, of less 'stature', and yet of the same order, they were the object of hope and desire to the greater spirits, who knew something of their form and nature and the mode and approximate time of their appearance in the realization. But they also realized that the Children of God must not be 'dominated', though they would be specially susceptible to it. It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book. I am sorry if this all seems dreary and 'pompöse'. But so do all attempts to 'explain' the images and events of a mythology. Naturally the stories come first. But it is, I suppose, some test of the consistency of a mythology as such, if it is capable of some son of rational or rationalized explanation.

[♔atthias♔]

I have another question
should the dunedain of the north and the dunedain of dol amroth be taller than other dunedain of gondor?
for I always thought that their blood from [the former] was more pure than the latter
but is there any evidence in tolkien's work for that
greetings atthias

[Alkar]

I have another question
should the dunedain of the north and the dunedain of dol amroth be taller than other dunedain of gondor?
for I always thought that their blood from [the former] was more pure than the latter
but is there any evidence in tolkien's work for that
greetings atthias

Full-blooded Dunedain are taller than other men (more Elf-like genetics), and thus those of purer Dunedain blood should generally be taller than those who are less pure (based on genetics). Generally speaking, a Dunedain would have to be statistically at least half pure-blooded to be substantially taller than normal men. So yes, those from Dol Amroth and such should generally be taller (they have higher Elven blood as well). I hope this answers your question!

[♔atthias♔]

Full-blooded Dunedain are taller than other men (more Elf-like genetics), and thus those of purer Dunedain blood should generally be taller than those who are less pure (based on genetics). Generally speaking, a Dunedain would have to be statistically at least half pure-blooded to be substantially taller than normal men. So yes, those from Dol Amroth and such should generally be taller (they have higher Elven blood as well). I hope this answers your question!

thanks for the answer alkar


@mr j are you going in regards to this to made the northern dundedain and dol amroth dunedain taller than orther gondoirian ones?
greetings atthias

[Melvasul]

I have another question
should the dunedain of the north and the dunedain of dol amroth be taller than other dunedain of gondor?
for I always thought that their blood from [the former] was more pure than the latter
but is there any evidence in tolkien's work for that
greetings atthias

About this I'd like to point out some things.

After the second age is no more possible to think about a men "pure" folk as Dunedain(and Northmen and Middle Men) as long as the 3 main folks merged completely at the end of the First Era and at the beginning of the Second Era(this obviously could me made if we think at "close" people that always lived by their own as the east man of Khand and Rhun or the Druedain)

Between the various lines some were "purer" if we want to think about this, for example the lines of Denethor(yeah one of the "best" steward Gondor ever had) was one of the purest of the Steward, infact he was wiser than most of the Steward and so on, the same could be say for Imrahil's line ^^

About the Dunedain of the North, well they're quite all dead if you do not count the few rangers.

Sure some men were taller than others(like both Denethor's and Imrahil's lines are described you may think of this) but it could be just to make them looking "greater" than others(like in One Piece you have "un-giant" man that are quite enormous as WhiteBeard)

So thinking about it, should they have different tall? well their life span is long enough to make this thing relevant only if we talk about Eras(If we apply evolution's theory to ME)

This is, obviously, my think ^^

[Alkar]

About this I'd like to point out some things.

After the second age is no more possible to think about a men "pure" folk as Dunedain(and Northmen and Middle Men) as long as the 3 main folks merged completely at the end of the First Era and at the beginning of the Second Era(this obviously could me made if we think at "close" people that always lived by their own as the east man of Khand and Rhun or the Druedain)

Between the various lines some were "purer" if we want to think about this, for example the lines of Denethor(yeah one of the "best" steward Gondor ever had) was one of the purest of the Steward, infact he was wiser than most of the Steward and so on, the same could be say for Imrahil's line ^^

About the Dunedain of the North, well they're quite all dead if you do not count the few rangers.

Sure some men were taller than others(like both Denethor's and Imrahil's lines are described you may think of this) but it could be just to make them looking "greater" than others(like in One Piece you have "un-giant" man that are quite enormous as WhiteBeard)

So thinking about it, should they have different tall? well their life span is long enough to make this thing relevant only if we talk about Eras(If we apply evolution's theory to ME)

This is, obviously, my think ^^

Nice to see you join the discussion! I hope to get these revived xD.

[Mr.Jox]

I believe all dunedain have same tall. They only have different lifetime.

[Mr.Jox]

What about Gondor king of TA who had mixed blood? His mom was from Rhovanion and so Castamir started a Civil War. I dont remember name of this king, probably Eldacar. But in any case he was half blooded but survived for many years and was as tall as all other dunedain.

[Mr.Jox]

I was going to make all dunedain same tall. No need to make such small differences.

[♔atthias♔]

I was going to make all dunedain same tall. No need to make such small differences.

okay thanks for the answer
greetings atthias

[Alkar]

What about Gondor king of TA who had mixed blood? His mom was from Rhovanion and so Castamir started a Civil War. I dont remember name of this king, probably Eldacar. But in any case he was half blooded but survived for many years and was as tall as all other dunedain.

He would have been less than half Dunedain, as even his father was not full-blooded. Do you remember where his height is mentioned? In any case, he seemed to have inherited most of his father's genetics (within the Mendelian genetic model), as his life-span was not diminished in any significant way.

okay thanks for the answer
greetings atthias

No problem! Don't take it as an absolute answer, though, as Tolkien's genetics are a bit muddled (and they didn't even know much about genetics back then - also Tolkien was not terribly concerned about it). I may need to do some more research some time or another.