Javelinmen Range

**Velico** · July 04, 2015, 12:48 PM

I'm playing as the Saxons, and wanted to weigh in on the range of their Geoguth Skirmishers (and skirmishers in general). I don't know if their ranges have been edited, but the unit behavior seems really strange in that they run up almost to melee range and have a few in the unit throw javelins. This has been happening even with skirmish mode turned off. They run well beyond their maximum range for me very often, to the point where they're a liability because enemy infantry can charge and catch them in melee.

I generally use slingers to take out the enemy skirmishers, then bring in my javelinmen to hit their better troops to soften them up before the lines meet. I do not like discharging into the flanks or rear of an engaged enemy, as the casualties are high (as they should be), and it just goes against everything I've ever read about ancient light infantry tactics.

What are others' opinion on this? Are javelin skirmisher ranges too short, or am I just used to other mods (I come primarily from DeI for Rome 2 and Roma Surrectum II from Rome 1) where skirmishers are used more for harassment and screening than super close range high damage dealers. Are there bugs on their unit behavior? I've been able to replicate the above in custom battles with other skirmishers.

**Friar Chris** · July 04, 2015, 06:39 PM

I'm having my javelinmen frequently getting destroyed by the precursors of enemy infantry since the precursors have the same range (and javelinmen are more vulnerable!); on my build I've reduced precursor range so this isn't possible.

More generally though, I'm having the same problem with skirmishers getting too close; or else running away too soon with skirmish-behaviour on. ESPECIALLY missile cavalry, who seem totally incapable (even with Parthian shot) of throwing a single javelin without also charging into melee, or else who flee long before they have chance to use a single javelin if they're using skirmish mode.

I don't honestly know why these guys are so unwilling to throw their javelins tbh.

**Ahiga** · July 04, 2015, 10:03 PM

Reminds me of an old issue I had back in MTWII, but back then I swore it was because they had to be in 100% perfect formation to throw javelins. Not sure that is at play here but my thinking is the solution will be multi-faceted. I noticed during a quick test of my new graphics assets that medium/heavy Germanic cavalry could almost outpace light Hunnic cavalry. Not sure if there were special circumstances to that situation but clearly if we make heavier units more slower and lighter units faster (or just the former slower) it'll give them more time to shoot. We could also increase the reload skill/reload rate of projectiles to allow for more shots. I'm not really sure about increasing the javelin range, save that what Friar did is definitely in order (Precursors being much shorter range).

I'll check what DEI's ranges for them are.

**Friar Chris** · July 04, 2015, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ahiga

Reminds me of an old issue I had back in MTWII, but back then I swore it was because they had to be in 100% perfect formation to throw javelins. Not sure that is at play here but my thinking is the solution will be multi-faceted. I noticed during a quick test of my new graphics assets that medium/heavy Germanic cavalry could almost outpace light Hunnic cavalry. Not sure if there were special circumstances to that situation but clearly if we make heavier units more slower and lighter units faster (or just the former slower) it'll give them more time to shoot. We could also increase the reload skill/reload rate of projectiles to allow for more shots. I'm not really sure about increasing the javelin range, save that what Friar did is definitely in order (Precursors being much shorter range).

I'll check what DEI's ranges for them are.

Incidentally the latest Attila patch did diversify cavalry speeds in particular based upon the weight, so lighter cavalry (benefiting the skirmishers in particular) are able to skirmish rings around heavier cavalry and infantry much easier. Probably a good idea to get the same kind of changes integrated. It also added Parthian shot to practically all skirmisher cavalry so that they don't have to be perfectly formed up and facing the right direction to throw their javelins, which is also probably a good idea in general to minimise that silly old 'wait until in formation before throwing' behaviour.

**Ahiga** · July 04, 2015, 10:03 PM

Reminds me of an old issue I had back in MTWII, but back then I swore it was because they had to be in 100% perfect formation to throw javelins. Not sure that is at play here but my thinking is the solution will be multi-faceted. I noticed during a quick test of my new graphics assets that medium/heavy Germanic cavalry could almost outpace light Hunnic cavalry. Not sure if there were special circumstances to that situation but clearly if we make heavier units more slower and lighter units faster (or just the former slower) it'll give them more time to shoot. We could also increase the reload skill/reload rate of projectiles to allow for more shots. I'm not really sure about increasing the javelin range, save that what Friar did is definitely in order (Precursors being much shorter range).

I'll check what DEI's ranges for them are.

**Willhelm123** · July 09, 2015, 08:24 AM

In order to reduce the time they need to fire by waiting for them to get in formation, all you need to do is give them a wider firing arc. If you give them it at 360 degrees they can fire almost the exactly second you press attack.

**Friar Chris** · July 09, 2015, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Willhelm123

In order to reduce the time they need to fire by waiting for them to get in formation, all you need to do is give them a wider firing arc. If you give them it at 360 degrees they can fire almost the exactly second you press attack.

Interesting. I doubt we really want a 360-degree firing arc, but it's worth seeing if the existing value can be tweaked up to improve reaction times within reasonable limits.

It's currently 150 for all infantry in FotE and 360 for all cavalry. I'm going to try tweaking very light, light and medium infantry to 240, 240 and 260 (as medium skirmishers exist but have slightly lower turn rates) and see if this improves their responsiveness.

**Velico** · July 11, 2015, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Friar Chris

Interesting. I doubt we really want a 360-degree firing arc, but it's worth seeing if the existing value can be tweaked up to improve reaction times within reasonable limits.

It's currently 150 for all infantry in FotE and 360 for all cavalry. I'm going to try tweaking very light, light and medium infantry to 240, 240 and 260 (as medium skirmishers exist but have slightly lower turn rates) and see if this improves their responsiveness.

Cool, keep us posted if you will. I'm interested to hear of your results.

**'Gunny** · July 20, 2015, 11:02 AM

Precursor ranges have now been slashed, and all ranges and damage values for missiles weapons have been reworked, hopefully it should clear up some of these issues. It is worth noting, however, that the changes done will have the effect of making it seem like one volley doesn't do much. Admittedly, one volley won't, but ammo amounts and reload times have been enhanced accordingly, and the intended effect is more projectiles over a longer period of time, so that the missiles scale with combat.

In past mods I've worked on missile damage didn't scale with melee damage, so you could bring one unit of javelins around the rear and they would just utterly decimate the slower combat troops ahead of them. Some mods opt to lower ammo counts to compensate for super high damage, but I'd rather have the missile units be useful for the entirety of the battle. So yes, they are inaccurate and don't deal huge amounts of damage in the short run, but the projectiles updates should do wonders in improving the long run deadliness of missiles.