The Use of Pikes?

[kwnic]

How widespread was the use of pikes at this time period, if at all? If the pike units are historically inaccurate do you guys plan on removing them from certain faction rosters? Also, does anyone have any sources they would care to suggest? I have some free time this summer and never really got a chance to study this time period.

[shawn858]

I've heard that in rare instances, some gothic/germanic peoples used them to make up for a lack of a strong cavalry force. I would also like to see them removed, they just don't fit in that much with this era.

I'd honestly like to see a smaller, more focused roster, and then if the player wants additional troops, you could get them through AOR

[Ahiga]

Sarissa sized pikemen are complete and utter baloney and will be completely removed from the mod, no disagreements there. In terms of 'pikemen', however, there seems to be two to three general references in this period but all with a great deal of skepticism about their viability.

The first is the most credible and it's the Pictish 7th-8th century stone where two spearmen and an archer are defending against a Northumbrian cavalrymen. One of the spearmen wields his spear with two hands and a shield apparently slung over his shoulder, the other wields a spear with one hand. That's well and beyond the date of FOTE but I am partial to adding a Pictish "pikemen" with a lance sized spear.

The second is Procopius' Histories, Persian Wars 2.18.24: In English you can find it by control + f "close array". http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16764...-h/16764-h.htm
"For as the Goths, first of all, came upon them with long spears in close array, the Persians did not await their attack but beat a hasty retreat.".

In Greek: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3A2008.01.0670

Transliterated into Latin it's "Dorasi Makrois", which Perseus says Dorasi is derivative of doru (Spear) and makrois (large/long). When Procopius refers to a lance (book 1.4.13) I think it's "dorasin" (he says Hippois te kai dorasin" which judging by proximity to #14 or #15 mentioning Perozes, suggests 1.4.13 is the passage and dorasin is 'lance'), which is again derivative of doru/spear. Which to me at least suggests a 'possibility' of the Goths using lance-sized spears. If Procopius used the word kontos to define lances it'd suggest he might treat that word as the suitable one for very large spears - he doesn't.

All we know from the passage is some Gothic troop fought on foot in close order with spears. It's worth noting that what constitutes long is tricky - I've heard the Turks/Persians/Romans all remarked about how the arabs fought with curiously short swords and curiously long spears. But their spears apparently are generally cited to around 6-8 feet or so. And Hoplites of old could fight with 9 foot spears, so a long spear doesn't mean a pike formation.

Simply put there's no evidence (Except for the Picts) to really speak on its behalf. Personally I doubt any such thing as pikemen existed in this period with exception for the Picts. But I was inclined to keep a few of them for the Alamanni/Suebi and Goths just for gameplay purposes.

I've waffled on removing or keeping 'pikemen' who would be in pike formation but with lances. I liked the idea of giving a low level pikemen to the Suebi/Alamanni to reflect the earlier Tactitus era references to them and the ostensible 'democratic' spirit of the Suebi/Alamanni. I originally disliked the idea of pikes at all for the Ostros (who I view as far more equestrian minded), then switched to giving them a levy pikemen and earlier considered even an armored pikemen. Now I am waffling away from that idea. Writing this post makes me feel like axing all pikes except for the Pictish ones mentioned, but I am not sure if I'll go that extreme or not. I think I am going to set it up so they have the stats, Char does the unit icon for them and they are ready to go but remove them from ownership so you can't recruit them, but are able to quickly make them enabled if you want.

[Friar Chris]

I think it's fairly clear that there were some ordered formations of long spears at the very least, used in a manner not unlike pikes in that they would be braced for battle. I think it's sensible to err on the side of calling them 'Pikemen' in-game simply to differentiate them from normal spear infantry and also to help players understand what's going on and how to use them. By all means though as much as we all love sarissae, they have to go.

[shawn858]

Yeah, pikemen need to go.


Is there a way to just have normal spearmen, but just with longer spears that could hit further away? If so, I think that would be the best compromise

[kwnic]

Very interesting. Personally, I am willing to toss aside gameplay for historical accuracy but perhaps making them for just the Picts and a few Germanic factions would be a compromise as you stated. From what I have read of the Ostrogoths I am in favor of removing them completely and creating units with "long spears" as others have mentioned.

And thanks for the source!

[Willhelm123]

How about just "pike"men with spears longer than usual but not the ridiculous length of pikes.

[Ahiga]

Unfortunately the way that animations work there's not really a viable way of having regular spearmen with noticably longer spears - it ends up looking a bit silly. There was something about a length value in the weapons table but that may due more with internal combat modifiers than actually looking the part. If we use the 'phalanx' formation with spears held in two hands then the animations work out. Doing it with lances when I did some quick test awhile back looked fairly reasonable, so it's just a question of if we think the Alamanni/Suebi and Goths should have them.

[Maximus183]

I actually set up the pikes on my build to be lances and used the weapon reach value and dropped it from 5 to 3 and got some nice results. The spears stop most charges better than regular spears, but they don't have the super kill rates that the sarissas had. Try it on your own and you'll see what I mean, it works quite well.

[Pleistorus]

Lol pikes and bows. Meant pikes and spears, sorry.

[Pleistorus]

I remembered reading a reference to "pikes" in Jordanes' history of the Goths. About the battle of Nedao:

"And so the bravest nations tore themselves to pieces. For then, I think, must have occurred a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugi breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suavi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors."

I don't know what the words used in the original language were, but this translation does differentiate between "pikes" and "bows". Maybe someone familiar with the original can comment?

[Ahiga]

Appreciate that, that was the other source I remember reading but I forgot it.

http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed...ths/Goths2.htm

Just control F search for "pike", then look to the left:

Nam ibi admirandum reor fuisse spectaculum, ubi cernere erat contis pugnantem Gothum, ense furentem Gipedam, in vulnere suo Rugum tela frangentem, Swevum pede, Hunnum sagitta pr�sumere, Alanum gravi, Erulum levi armatura aciem struere.

Judging from the terms used next to Gothum contis is contus. I swore the first time I saw the passage I read it as lancaea or some such (which would argue towards being a spear) but I must be mistaken. He also uses the term lanceis elsewhere to refer to spear and in that passage you cite mentions rugian spears - 'tela' being according to Perseus a missile weapon, missile, dart, spear, shaft, javelin. Which means either it's poetic license and a means of variying words (the same way some authors today will call a spear a lance or a lance a spear), or he clearly distinguishes between a spear and a proper 'pike' (contus).

I think I've a bit of a bias because I've used similar isolated textual references (armored archers for the Sassanids) as justification, but here I'm slightly leery. The evidence clearly speaks to spears associated with the Goths (might want to consider giving them the 'royal comitatus spearmen' unit I have floating around yet I think unassigned), and the potential for 'long' spears. However like mentioned earlier long is subjective - Herodotius attributes the success of the Greeks in part to longer spears (averaging 8-9 feet), while the Achaemenid's spears appear to have been around 5-6 feet. I believe Roman spears were around 6 feet or so.

I'll have it set up at least so you can after editing a table recruit pikemen with lance sized pikes - they'll be lower quality however, the idea of armored pike walls is just too much for me. Could end up making them part of the standard FOTE package, might not. Dunno yet. This does make me consider a future adjustment to strengthen the presence of spearmen among the Ostros and Visis perhaps.