Medieval Greek

[Beiss]

Ok, so what do you have to say about that, Biohaker? By the way, if you feel like you have difficulty communicating and discussing this subject in English, go ahead and do it in Greek, I don't mind. Just as long as I get a summary once you have agreed on something.

[biohaker]

{Mediterranean_Allied_Army_Leader_Killed_1}Our noble brothers have lost their leader! Without their general they may lose heart and flee!
{Mediterranean_Allied_Army_Leader_Killed_2}Our ally's general lies dead, slain by the enemy! We must help his men avenge him lest they lose
heart!
{Mediterranean_Allied_Army_Routed_1}Our allies have fled the field like cowards! We must look to our own men now.
{Mediterranean_Allied_Army_Routed_2}Our cowardly allies have fled the field! They cannot be called true men.
{Mediterranean_Allied_General_Captured_1}Our foolish allied general has allowed himself to be captured by the enemy! I pray to the Lord above our foe extends the codes of chivalry to our ally.
{Mediterranean_Allied_General_Captured_2}Our allied general has been captured! We must win this battle or his fate will be in the hands of our diabolical foe!{Mediterranean_Allied_General_Executed_1}Our foe does not know honour! He has executed the general of our allies just so our men will fear him!
{Mediterranean_Allied_General_Executed_2}Our enemy have executed our allies' general! Such dark deeds will reap only blood and vengeance!
{Mediterranean_Allied_General_Routed_1}Our allies' general is leaving the field! He has no honour!
{Mediterranean_Allied_General_Routed_2}The allies' general flees and our allies are lost without him!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Army_Half_Gone_1}The enemy are badly bloodied! They have lost half their men!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Army_Half_Gone_2}Only half the enemy force remains!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Army_Routing_1}The enemy flees the battle! Run down those worthless peasants!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Army_Routing_2}Praise the Almighty! Our enemy has lost the stomach to fight! We must push our advantage.
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Breached_Gate_1}To arms General! The enemy have breached the gates!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Breached_Gate_2}Our foes have broken through the gates!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Dominating_Plaza_Castle_1}Beware, the opportunity for us to regain control of the castle has almost vanished!{Mediterranean_Enemy_Dominating_Plaza_Castle_2}Quickly My Lord! We must regain command of the castle lest we lose it!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Dominating_Plaza_City_1}Beware the opportunity for us to regain control of the city has almost vanished!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Dominating_Plaza_City_2}Quickly My Lord! We must regain command of the city lest we lose it!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Dominating_Plaza_Fort_1}Beware, the opportunity for us to regain control of the Fort has almost vanished!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_Dominating_Plaza_Fort_2}Quickly My Lord! We must regain command of the Fort lest we lose it!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_General_Captured_1}Glorious Heaven above! Our men have captured the enemy general! Guard him well, give the dog some wine and be sure he can see us defeat the rest of his army!
{Mediterranean_Enemy_General_Captured_2}The Lord above is kind! We have captured the enemy's general! That will teach the cowardly dog to run. Now he can rest ... at our leisure.
{Mediterranean_Enemy_General_Killed_1}We are blessed! The enemy general is dead! We have sent the idiot to Hell.
{Mediterranean_Enemy_General_Killed_2}Praise to our Lord! Our men have slain the enemy general! Now his men will lose heart!



These are the translations in medieval Greek (but noτ in polytonic system)
(of the first page, there are 6 remaining)

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1)Τ’αδέρφια ημών, τον αρχηγό των έχασαν! Θεασάμενοι χαμόν αυτού, ή φοβηθούν και τραπούν εις φυγήν!
2)Κείτεται νεκρός, ο στρατηγός των συμμάχων, εκ των εχθρών φονευμένος! Καλούμεν εις βοήθειαν, ίνα εκδικηθώμεν τον χαμόν του!

1)Οι σύμμαχοι ημών, ετράπησαν εις φυγήν, ως πόντικες δειλοί. Είτα δέον βασισθώμεν εις τους άνδρας ημών!
2)Οι δειλοί σύμμαχοι ημών, θάττον εγκατέλιπον την μάχην! Ούτοι ουκ ονομάζονται, άντρες αληθινοί!

1)Αλλοίμονο, τω στρατηγώ των συμμάχων! Επέτρεψε την ομηρία του τοις εχθροίς! Προσευχόμεθα τω Θεώ, έλεος δείξη εις το πρόσωπόν του ίνα ουκ άνανδρα του εφερθούν.
2)Λοχαγός των συμμαχικών στρατευμάτων αιχμάλωτος εστί! Ετούτη την μάχην, νικηφόρον τελέσετε , αλλιώς η μοίρα του, εις τας διαβολικά χείρας των εχθρών παραμείνει.

1)Ανδρείαν λειπόμενος, ο εχθρός, εξετέλεσεν τον σύμμαχον στρατηγόν, ώστε φόβον επέπεσεν των αντρων ημών.
2)Οι εχθροί, εθανάτωσαν, τον σύμμαχον στρατηγόν! Αύτα κακά, μόνον αίμα και εκδίκηση φέρουσιν.

1)Ο ταγματάρχης των συμμάχων, τιμήν λειπόμενος, το πεδίον της μάχεως, εγκατέλειψεν.
2)Συμμάχων επιφανών στρατηγός απέδρασεν, ταύτοι χαμένοι ουν εστί, άνευ ούτου.

1)Οι εχθροί πολλάκις επλήγησαν, πλείστοι εξ’ αυτών απέθανον!
2)Εκ της εχθρικής δυνάμεως, μισοί απέμεινον!

1)Εχθροί ημών ετράπησαν εις φυγήν! Αφανήσατε αυτούς τους αχρήστους ακρίτας δια παντός!
2)Δώξα τω Παντοδύναμω! Επιβουλευόντων των βαρβάρων, Επίθεσις!!!

1)Είς τά όπλα στρατηγέ! Ρηγμάτωσαν τας πύλας ημών!
2)Οι πύλες άνοιξαν εις τοις βαρβάροις ρήμασι!

1)Προσοχή αδέλφια, ελαχίστων πιθανοτήτων εχόντων , εχάθησαν τοιάυτες, εις την προσπάθειαν επανακτήσεως του κάστρου.
2)Γοργώς Βασιλέα! Επιτακτικήν εστίν ουν ανάγκη, ίνα επανακτήσομεν το κάστρον, ειδεμή χαμένοι ήμεθα!

1) Προσοχή αδέλφια, ελαχίστων πιθανοτήτων εχόντων , εχάθησαν τοιάυτες, εις την προσπάθειαν επανακτήσεως της πόλεως.
2)Γοργώς Βασιλέα! Επιτακτικήν εστίν ουν ανάγκη, ίνα επανακτήσομεν την πόλην , ειδεμή χαμένοι ήμεθα!

1)Προσοχή αδέλφια, ελαχίστων πιθανοτήτων εχόντων , εχάθησαν τοιάυτες, εις την προσπάθειαν επανακτήσεως του οχυρού.
2)Γοργώς Βασιλέα! Επιτακτικήν εστίν ουν ανάγκη, ίνα επανακτήσομεν το οχυρό, ειδεμή χαμένοι ήμεθα!

1)Δόξα τοις ουρανοίς! Άνδρες ημών, όμηρον τον βάρβαρον στρατηγόν κρατώντα. Φυλλάσετε καλώς τούτον, δώσετε οίνον γλυκόν, σίγουροι μείνατε, θεασάμενος καταστροφής της υπολοίπου στρατιάς αυτού!
2)Μακάριος και παντοδύναμος ο κύριος ημών! Εις ομηρίαν τον εχθρικόν αρχηγόν επιτάξαμεν! Διδαξόμενος ο σκώλιξ τε υπέρ ημών, τρέχειν. Τώρα ανάπαυλαν ημών απολαμβάνειν!

1)Ευλογημένοι ήμεθα, ώ παίδες Ελλήνων τε και Ρωμαίων! Ο βάρβαρος στρατηγός νεκρός εστί! Εις αιωνίαν κόλασην, πέμψαμεν ούτον,
2)Δόξα εις τον κύριον τον θεόν ημών! Οι άνδρες μας, εθανατώσαν τον βάρβαρον εχθρόν! Τώρα, οι άνδρες αυτού, απολέσωσι τας καρδίας των!

[Beiss]

Ok, looks nice to me! Please, put your translations directly under each line in the original document, like this:

{Mediterranean_Allied_Army_Leader_Killed_1}Our noble brothers have lost their leader! Without their general they may lose heart and flee!
1)Τ’αδέρφια ημών, τον αρχηγό των έχασαν! Θεασάμενοι χαμόν αυτού, ή φοβηθούν και τραπούν εις φυγήν!

{Mediterranean_Allied_Army_Leader_Killed_2}Our ally's general lies dead, slain by the enemy! We must help his men avenge him lest they lose
heart!
2)Κείτεται νεκρός, ο στρατηγός των συμμάχων, εκ των εχθρών φονευμένος! Καλούμεν εις βοήθειαν, ίνα εκδικηθώμεν τον χαμόν του!

When you're done, send the whole document with the battle events and your translations (as I described above) to my e-mail as a text file, or attach it to your post. If you can, try using actual quotes if you can find any that fit into the context. And for the other documents, too! What do you say, the rest of you Greek people? Is this good?

[biohaker]

I will do it exactly as u said it. The translation under the original. I posted the first page just for that. So others see it, comment and maybe someone has to propose sth better or some correction or whatever. Do not wait the whole document in a few days, as i work it on my free time.

Goodbye!

[Beiss]

No hurry, biohaker. Hope to see you soon!

[Keravnos]

Absolutely great.

Only one comment is that you need to use more "RomanoGreek" words that "Byzantion" used.

case in point. If you were going to use...
"Οι ανιχνευταί αναφέρουν μεγάλην των εχθρών συγκέντρωσιν"

"Oι εξπλοράτορες αναφέρουν μεγάλη των εχθρών συγκέντρωσιν"

Please check a "Byzantine" lexicon or something. Those should exist and be great for your mod.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't that I don't like this. My only problem stems from the fact that it looks and sounds "Καθαρεύουσα" right now. If you could use some Romanogreek words like I mentioned it would be 100% perfect.

[paokmam]

I want to say some things about Medieval Greek, because I am doing a master now in Geneva about The Byzantine Orthodoxy, so I study many texts in their original form. The game starts when Alexios Komnenos is on the thrown. This period (1071-1204) is the shrinking period of the byzantine empire. There is a tendency in Constantinople of classic ancient Greek education. People that were educated spoke and wrote in a form of ATTIKI ancient greek(the language of Plato and Aristotle) and not the language of the Bible(KOINI), which was considered suitable only for the masses. But those where the facts in Constantinople. Around the empire the situation was very different, depending from the nationality of the population of each city. For example in Erzerum(Theodosioupolis) the official language were the Greek. But after the invasion of the Turks the Armenian peasants that found refuge there changed the common people basic language from Greek to Armenian, because they outnumbered them. To understand the complexity of the empire I am going to mensio another example. Constantine VII Porpryrogenite wrote that in Monemvasia(a fortress in Pelloponissos, next to the forthcoming Mystras) there were a few pagan(ancient Greek) worshippers during hiw reign. That means that there were still parts of the Empire still "loyal" to the ancient Greek traditions(I use plural because ancient Greece was more than one thing). You understand ofcourse the difficulty of saying what was exactly the situation. I want to add that in Mount Athos we have manuscripts of the same period written in a language that is like modern day Greek with the usage of polytonic. But those manuscripts were written for everyday usages. It's like trying to make a conclusion from my mother's shopping list.

I also want to comment one more thing. The polytonic was alive for any Greek till 1981, when it was forbidden by law, because they thought it was anachronist. But still all the university professors write with polytonic and use a style close to Katharevousa. Also the students that study Orthodox theology and Byzantine History and Literature are also advised to use polytonic when writing, because it is thought more scientific. There was also a letter sent to the former minister of education advising him allow again the usage of polytonic in all the greek schools and universities by almost a million Greeks living in Athens and the answer was positive. As we speak the young Greeks are obliged once again to read and learn ancient Greek in any school.

As far as Keravnos is concerned, he is wright. The military language till 1204 was strictly Latin with Greek pronanciation.
1.Adgestum= levee, band
2.Agmen=squadron
3.Auxillia=light cavalry
4.Ballistae=catapult
5.Bucella=small ship that was also called παξημάδιον in Greek
6.Burgi=small position of defence
7.Centurio
8.Cohortes
9.Decurio
10.Equites
11.Foederati=mercenaries
12.Limitanei=also called ακρίτες
and so one

But after 1204 and due the hatred that was cultivated against the West in general by the court of Nicaea all the terms were changed in Greek. It was then that the Idea of the Greek Nation was born and it was then that the common people start speaking for a Greek empire.Only the court kept dreaming of the Roman past. It was then that we have many texts written in a modern Greek type language as a response to the Westerns classicism(see Thomas Aquinatis, Scholasticism, Italian thought etc.)
Some examples of military terms
1.Athanatoi Αθάνατοι=the emperors bodyguard, founded by alexios komnenos himself
2.Akrites Ακρίτες= local aristocracy that was responsible for guarding the boarders by recruiting the local population
3.Allagion Αλλάγιον= great group of soldiers
4.Apelatikion Απελατίκιον=bat
end so on

If any of you leaves in Greece or has access to a post selling greek books you need to know that there is a book called ΒΥΖΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΤΡΑΤΟΣ Ο ΥΠΕΡΑΣΠΙΣΤΗΣ ΤΗΣ ΧΙΛΙΟΧΡΟΝΗΣ ΑΥΤΟΚΡΑΤΟΡΙΑΣ των εκδοσεων ΠΕΡΙΣΚΟΠΙΟ(BYZANTINE ARMY THE DEFENDER OF THE ONE THOUSAND YEARS EMPIRE by PERISCOPIO publications) του Δημητρη Μπελεζου. There you can find all your answers.
http://www.periscopio.gr/site/bookDe...asp?bookID=222
Υοu biohaker can find it easily at any bookstore.
There are also these articles

http://www.periscopio.gr/site/articl...agID=8&aID=235

http://www.periscopio.gr/site/articl...agID=8&aID=257

http://www.oakknoll.com/results.php?...V&s_ShowPics=1

[Keravnos]

Thanks for all of that Paokman.

I agree with all you wrote, including the devastation brought in the empire when Konstatninoupolis fell.

Still, I maintain that latin terms are used, as it adds to the experience of the Romani empire, as by now it is clear, that "Byzantine Empire" is but a modern concept which never really existed. It was the continuation of the Roman empire and as such it shoudl be named.

Besides, if a player is good and the "city" doesn't fall, why would there be such a need for a drastic "greekification" like the one which happened post 1204?

Now, on Kathareuousa, I disagree with you. It was used in hellenistic times as a "tool" to get non hellenes to intonate greek correctly. It failed, and for a little more than 2000 years all us Hellenes got stuck with using some signs of intonation for a language that doesn't exist by now. I of course respect, Church and doctrinal studies and their curriculum, but in everyday life, polytonic has outlived its usefulness.

[paokmam]

Even though I disagree with you about Katharevousa about the duration it had, I agree that modern Greeks have no actual relation with it, except maybe of us studying these stuff.
As far as the Byzantine Empire is concerned I think that the best would be a more Greek approach. Byzantium is a creation of Wolff. The Byzantines called themselves Romaioi/Romioi and the state was called Romania(we find this in Basil the Great letters in the 4th century and in the songs of the akrites). Ofcourse officially it was called Roman Empire, but after the 8th century we can speak of a Greek empire with a latin past.(The confirmation comes from the Latin texts written in the empire of Charlomagne/Carolus Magnus, although they wrote to claim the title of the Roman Empire for themselves). We cannot speak ofcourse with certainty but the corpus of texts is in Greek, the liturgy is in Greek, the people are mostly Greek etc.
So I propose usage of greek words in the military language...:hmmm:

[Beiss]

We are not concerned with what happened after 1204. We will only reflect what things were like in 1080, since that's when the game starts (vanilla). We can't reflect the changes done to the language over time - besides, what if history hadn't gone the way it did? M2TW allows you to "rewrite" history. Would English really sound the way it does if, say, Poland had conquered the British Isles, as is possible in the game? Of course not! We can't take every possibility into consideration, but must stick with what was true at the beginning of the game's time spectrum. We can only do our best to make each language in Xenophonia as similar as possible to its 1080 counterpart/version. Greek (or Latin, whatever language the Byzantines (or whatever they're called) spoke) is one of the few languages that we actually know what it was like back then, and probably the only one we have a change to reflect correctly.

Do continue discussing this as you have, because I want it to be correct when it's done. Thanks for your input, paokmam! Though I really think you should make it a habit to edit your posts instead of posting several in a row, or you'll get in trouble with the moderators. Don't worry, you'll get a higher post count eventually, but sextuple posting isn't the way to go.

[paokmam]

You have a very good point. In 1080 though the situation was critical for the empire. They were in a state of change. But still I propose the usage of the Greek Language, because that was the language spoken by the court of that time and was the basic language of the people in the Greek mainland, the Aegean Sea, the East Minor Asia and Cyprus.

[Beiss]

You know, we can make soldiers speak one language and others another. For example, diplomats and princesses can speak Greek, and soldiers and armies Latin.

[Keravnos]

You know, we can make soldiers speak one language and others another. For example, diplomats and princesses can speak Greek, and soldiers and armies Latin.

Latin, by that time, was just in titles or ranks, or weapon's names. Ranks mostly of those. In all other uses, it was predominantly greek.

[Beiss]

Ok. I was just saying - only because some characters speak Greek doesn't mean they all have to. Keep that in mind and choose the best solution for each type of character. If the most correct thing is to have them all speak Greek, then fine. I have no preference here, I just want to be historically accurate.

[biohaker]

Alamanoi for example could speak German and Varangians Russian. I haven't found the time to progress the translation. Paok man you are right. I will change some rank names like strategos etc with some latin terms.

[Beiss]

Yeah, that too, we can make individual units use another faction's language on the battle map, as is already the case in the game with some units.

[paokmam]

Very good idea. Each commander spoke its native language. If it is possible why not?But still bear in mind that the Byzantines thought of the outside world of Barbarians!(We find that in Notitiae Episcopatuum de Alexius Comnenus).So I suppose(without being able to confirm that) that they thought likewise for their languages too. So, were those languages used in the imperial army or only when the mercenaries spoke with each other?

[Beiss]

See this is the catch - while we can make each unit speak a different language, each unit of, say, kataphraktoi must speak the same language as every other kataphrakoi. All Generals will speak the same language as the others in that faction. All diplomats will speak the same language as the other diplomats in that faction, etc. We can't make the same character speak one language when speaking to one unit and another language when speaking to another unit, etc.

[paokmam]

Exactly!So that strongens the option of Greek, since it was the only language that all the citizens of the empire spoke due to the liturgy that was in Greek inside the boarders of the Imperium

[Beiss]

Fine by me. Everyone else agree?