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Thread: Medieval Greek

  1. #1

    Default Medieval Greek

    Master Source Documents (use the "Mediterranean" ones):

    Here we will have a link to the Translation Master Document,

    And here we will have a link to the Medieval Translation Master Document.
    When this medieval translation document is completed, recording can begin.

    This thread is for discussing the language, translation, sources of information, and eventually, the mod itself and how it can be improved.

    If your language doesn't already have thread, PM me and I'll make one, or go ahead and make one yourself, and I'll make sure that your first post contains all the necessary info. Thanks!!

    Original post: Aren't you going to have new voices for teh byzantines?
    Last edited by Beiss; April 07, 2007 at 06:44 PM.

  2. #2
    mac89's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Ofcourse we are! We'll be doing them all, keep in mind that writing down all those lines takes forever. There are more than 2000 files for the Arabs alone, and as far as I know Im the only one writing them down.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    ok..anyway if you need i could rec some phrases in greek cuz i'm half greek and i think i have quite a good pronounce

  4. #4
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Awesome. We still need to make more progress writing the lines down before we can start translating and recording. I'm glad you want to help, however.
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  5. #5

    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    In relation to the issue regarding russian diplomats and what they should speak to foreigners: I have seen it claimed in various places that greek was poorly known in catholic countries (specifically in reference to ancient literature only becoming widely known when it had been translated into latin). Therefore, it could be that byzantine diplomats to catholic countries would use latin. Is there someone here knowledgeable enough to confirm or deny this? For instance, if historical treaties between the byzantines and catholic powers were written in latin, then it is appropriate that they should speak latin to catholics.

    In regard to arabic and turkic factions, I would certainly like to know whether it is more historically correct to use greek or arabic.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Byzantine diplomats were fluent in both the latin and the greek language as both were the official languages of the empire (after Emperor Maurikius made greek official). Nevertheless, numerics, coinage and the bulls (the famous chrusovoula of the Emperors) were written in greek only (see the Alexiad of Anna Comnena for more details). Hence, I believe that the diplomats insisted in using greek (the language of the papers at hand) having them translated prima voce in latin. Also, the orthodox church denounced the use of latin after 8th century.
    Although turks were clearly devided in three main factions at the begining of the first crusade, we better unite the language used under the general umrella of the first Ottoman turkish (which is also easier to convert modern turkish into without losing the medieval atmosphere). It sounds much like the seljuk-armenian "heavy" turkish accents (vowal symphonies of "u" or "eu" in the whole sentence).
    Greek is a language that the Turks would never use (believe me). I also reject the use of Arabian languages by the Turks (they were more related to the Kumanic and Tatar languages of the Siberian North).

  7. #7
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Constantine,

    In regard to arabic and turkic factions, I would certainly like to know whether it is more historically correct to use greek or arabic.
    This refers to "when speaking with foreigners", of course. I doubt the either the Greeks or the Arabs would speak Turkish with the Turks - surely it must have been the other way around. When speaking to each other, they used Turkish, and while playing the Turks, they will speak Turkish - no one has said anything else. *just clarifying*
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  8. #8

    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Of course I was referring to the question of what they speak to foreigners. From what you are saying it seems the greek would insist on speaking their own language if at all possible and relying on interpreters. In that case their diplomats and princesses should always speak greek.

    In the case of "turks speaking to foreigners" I would have guessed that they would use arabic or greek, arabic being a sort of lithurgical language for them (what with reading the Quran and all) and also a being used in a large area on a daily basis, and probably greek because of their proximity and various dealings with the byzantines. A mix of arabic and greek for the diplomats perhaps?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    There is a long tradition of greeks and persians working under the banner of the Sultan during the medieval period. It is visible until now that the "educated" turks prefer the persian-rooted turkish words. Nevertheless, iranian Farsi does not apply here

  10. #10

    Icon3 Re: Medieval Greek

    Hello. I couldn't help but notice that there's still no medieval greek yet.

    Anyways, I have come to realise that the greek bible speaks an old greek, perhaps and most likely the medieval greek you guys need to help translate. The orthodox priests still speak the medieval greek during church mass, and the tought came to me that an online bible dictionary site might do the trick to help the translating.:hmmm:

    Here's a site that allows you to click on individual words to translate:
    http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvst...45C012.htm#V19

  11. #11
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    I've been trying to get in touch with Constantine, who told me a while ago that he was almost finished translating into Medieval Greek and Ottoman Turkish. Until he replies, I don't know what still needs to be translated. But thanks for your help!
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  12. #12
    Orfeo's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    And, pray, what know we of the pronounciation of this Medieval Greek? Any insight on the matter?

  13. #13
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Good question. We know more than we do about ancient greek, that's for sure, and we know more than we do for most languages at the time. Any language taught in schools have contemporary books on the subject. I think Greek is the language we should be the least worried about to get the pronounciation right (except maybe Latin), there should be plenty of sources.

    Argh, where the hell is Constantine? I've been trying to find him for a month now...
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  14. #14
    biohaker's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Hello people. I am from Greece and I m fun of Total war ROME and MEDIEVAL2 (I prefer Rome because the Greeks were the best then). I would like to help u in the translations and recordings to make a mod for Byzantines. I would like to inform u that there is no such term "Medieval Greek" but "Katharevousa" meaning "Clean" from Greek "Katharos" (Καθαρός=clean). It is called like that because linguistics tried to "clean" the Turkish accent from Greek language.

    Some History but it is nessesary:
    After Great Alexander's conquers, all the known world were speaking ancient Greek. But because ancient Greek language had only big letters (ABC not abc) and from it's nature our language have difficulties in pronunciation, Alexander put the literature studying men, to make a new alphabetic system, so the people of his empire to learn the language more easily. So they made the small letters and put tones to distinguish words and to pitch the voice particularly.
    While Greece felt into the Roman's hands, the same language were spoken. Byzantium became the Capital of Rome, so the Greeks have the control of the Empire again. After Emperor Constantine renamed Byzantium into Constantinople (in Greek Κωνσταντινούπολις = Πόλις Κωνσταντίνου = City of Constantine. Now Turks call it Instabul which is from the greek EnstinPolin=Eis tin polin (Εις στην Πόλην) "meaning To the City") and became a Christian Orthodox (Ορθόδοξος=oρθό δόγμα=right teaching) the language changed a little. When Byzantine Empire felt under the Turk (Ottomans or Seljuks) command (after the great fall of Constantinople in 1453) Greek language adopted some Turkish expressions.
    As conclusion Byzantine Greek were like Modern Greek (The language we talk in Greece now) but with ancient Greek endings to the words.

    Sorry for that! Well if u need help improving the Xenophonia Mod tell me, i think i would be useful in this. And of course i like to play Medieval and hear "Stratigooooooos" and not "Commander" !!!

    XENOPHONIA = ΞΕΝΟΦΩΝΙΑ = ξένη φωνή = foreign voice

    Thanks for listening. I wait replies...

  15. #15
    biohaker's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    To be Practical... U could give me all the orders and sounds of medieval2 , or to start with the basics, to translate them. I can use my voice to some, or my bros to others, so let me know if u are interested.

    TY again.

  16. #16
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    I'll set you up with the other guy that's currently helping us.

    BTW, what you wrote up there transcribes into Xene phone, not Xenophonia. I thought Xenophonia was a "Greek" word. Could you explain the grammar there? (I'm currently taking a class in Ancient Greek, that's why I'm wondering)
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  17. #17
    biohaker's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Hi! Yes it is a Greek word. xenos+phoni (Ξένη φωνή. ξένη is the female, ξένος it is the male, ξένο it is the neutral. because phonia =φωνή, φωνία is a female noun we say ξένη and not ξένος or ξένο). But when the two words are combined to one it isn't wrong. so if u say xenophonia or xeniphonia is the same thing. where r u from and u following ancient Greek courses? r u studying literature? See polyphony (Πολύ + Φωνή= Many voices) or Monophony=One voice. Also gramophone = γραμμή + φωνή =Line or linear voice) microphone = μικρή φωνή = slow or little voice). Hydrophone =υδρόφωνο= ύδωρ+φωνή =water+voice) and many others.

  18. #18
    Basilakes En Strategoisin's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    I'm no expert on Medieval Greek, but it certainly isn't the same thing as Katharevousa, which was invented in the 19th century by upper-class linguists (chiefly Adamantios Korais) specifically to purge the language of late ancient/mediaeval/Ottoman age influences such as loanwords from Latin, Italian or Turkish.

    In medieval times, the East Roman society was in fact practically diglossic. The lower classes spoke a "vulgar" form of constantly developing Greek of which not many examples have survived but which ultimately evolved into the Demotic (Modern, literally "of-the-people") Greek spoken today. The upper class, on the other hand, never gave up the tradition of trying to stick to the Classical ancients (Plato, Lysias & the rest) and as a result they kept alive in their high-style court language many grammatical constructions and words that had long died out from street usage.

    What I don't have any idea about is to what extent the everyday spoken language of the upper classes would have differed from their pseudo-classical writing. Certainly a MTW Byzantine diplomat, princess or priest can't speak Modern Greek, but the shouts of the common soldiery are another matter. As for a general's speech to his men, I really don't know. Would a snobbish nobleman general "degrade" his language so his troops can understand what he's saying? You certainly need someone who is neither a pure classicist nor simply fluent in Modern Greek/Katharevousa but has actual knowledge of the literature of the period 1000-1453 AD. Go study the works that have survived (like the histories of Anna Comnene, Nicetas Choniates, Michael Psellus) and see how it compares with actual classical Greek.

    Also, Medieval Greek contained a number of Latin, and later, probably because of all the Venetian, Genoese & other traders, Italian loanwords, although these might not be apparent in the works of such well-educated people as Anna Comnene. Of especial interest to MTW should be that I remember reading there were many "fossilised" Latin phrases in use in both court ceremonial as well as in military language (since the language of the legions was latin even in late antiquity). So that right before that decisive charge, a byzantine commander might have shouted to his troops in Latin "Parati!" (be ready) though naturally with a Greek accent. Check out Wikipedia's article on Medieval Greek.

    But that's just the grammatics. As far as I know, there was no significant difference in pronunciation between the way upper-class Byzantines spoke at the time of the Renaissance and Modern Greek laymen speak today. Unless any more specific information can be found, it should be safe to say that as late as the 11th century, where the game starts, a simple Modern pronunciation is probably not too far off the mark. The classical "Erasmian" reconstructions are obviously right out. (Just in case someone would come and suggest that ).
    Μάντι κακών, ου πω ποτέ μοι το κρήγυον είπας,
    αιεί τοι τα κακ' εστί φίλα φρεσί μαντεύεσθαι,
    εσθλόν δ' ούτε τι πω είπας έπος ούτ' ετέλεσσας!

  19. #19
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    Great info. Thanks!
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  20. #20
    biohaker's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Medieval Greek

    I said that the most close language to the medieval greek is kathareyoysa. So if someone want to make byzantine speak their language it should be kathareyoysa. And noone can speak better greek than a greek. That's why i wanted to help.
    Our language haven't changed much the last 2500 years . Although it is spoken thousand years BC the most ancient written sample of greek language can be found in Linear A at around 3000BC. (Linear B was the mycenean alphabet). It has been found in Santorini, Crete, Cyprus, Kythera and other places.

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