Marian Madness?

[Satapatiš]

The big Roman accomplishments were more in the areas of supply, logistics and the physical and civil infrastructure to keep a large professional army in the field, not in the professional army per se.

Yes, Roman logistics and administration was probably what made them an empire.

I always used to say that Roman talent was in improving things initiated by other people and running it more effectively than anyone else before them. The greatest and most efficient copycats of Antiquity.
Maybe not the most flashy approach ever, but it got the job done.

Personally, I don't find Marian legions boring. There's some appeal in uniformity once you finally get there. Also, M2TW engine can get them right. On RTW engine there's a faceless army of clones (well, every unit of every nation is that way, but Romans have it further accented by their not so flashy and very utilitarian kit).
Now it's possible to have some variations in helmets and shield paints so they don't look that Hollywood.

[isa0005]

Both because I feel the army types represent the creation and evolution of the Roman Empire... yes pre-marian might provide for a very varied and colorful experience yet I cannot help but feel that they are not exactly suited for an Empire that takes up a good chunk of Europe and the Middle East... It also gives one a goal for the end game... something to work for... that's what I liked about EBI while yes I focusing on building an empire I also spend hundreds of turns finding good generals to potentially groom to set in motion the Marian reforms... heck I even utilized a few tricks ensuring I had a general I could use cheats on (if I couldn't be bothered waiting for ever in the various games I played) plus who doesn't love watching your lock step legions in red facing off against a hoard of hulking Germanic barbarians or standing strong against the iron fist of eastern Cataphracts!

[madmatg]

The Marian legions are really just harcoded into my mind from playing Rome and Rome 2 for so long. I think it's as simple as that for me haha. It's like the birthday candles on the cake, they don't really serve a purpose but it doesn't feel like a birthday without them

[Iulian Bashir]

Marian army was a symbol of an empire with a standing army unlike any other armies which is clan based meanwhile having a unified armaments yet diverse in role and function, without it Rome will never hold for 1000 years!

[QuintusSertorius]

Marian army was a symbol of an empire with a standing army unlike any other armies which is clan based meanwhile having a unified armaments yet diverse in role and function, without it Rome will never hold for 1000 years!

Sorry, once again, this is total nonsense. Lots of other factions had standing armies, and whether or not recruitment was clan-based was completely irrelevant. Lots of other factions had unified armaments.

The only real unique on the military front was the massive manpower Rome had, because the Italian peninsular was so full of people.

[Sint]

The only real unique on the military front was the massive manpower Rome had, because the Italian peninsular was so full of people.

I wish more pople would say that.

[Goffredo85]

For years, from vanilla rtw and associated mods up to r2tw and its own mods, i've always played only as romans. Despite this i really don't like post-marian legions. There's simply much more variety and flavour in a pre-marian roster, with all the different citizen units and italian allies. Not to mention that i find much more inspiring the idea of the roman citizen army fighting for duty towards the state that the one of a professional army progressively made up of provincials fighting for salary.

[Cohors_Evocata]

It seems isnt possible to vote anymore I would say both.

I think it still should be possible to vote for this poll. My guess is that you need to have a few more posts before voting on polls is enabled (TWC policy), I believe 25 was the norm.

[Kurush]

This thread has deeply called my attention. I think that one of the main objectives of the EB Team is precisely to erase that unfair idea that Antiquity is Rome and Greece. They have shown all of us that Antiquity was much more complex and richer than most of us had ever imagined. There are so many things to learn... The great power of the seleukid empire and of the Ptolemies in the III century B.C (usually unknown); the huge varietes and changes helenistic armies (and religions) had over time and space, product of the relationship between greek and native cultures; the importance of celtic people in Europe (not only the gauls defeated by Ceasar, but overall those celts that advanced in powerful waves towards the Balkans and Anatolia and inflicted huge blows to the local hellenistic powers, with which those wounded kingdoms drew on new military reforms to make their armies more flexible); the beautiful (yes, they are beautiful) experiences of culturally mixed kingdoms in the eastern fringe of the seleukid empire (such as Baktria and Gandhara); the dangers of living near Central Asia, a zone crammed with nomadic centaurs marching in full and swift stacks always prone to sack, rob and even invade... and the geography!!! I love those travellers' logs, with information about topography, climate, vegetation, fauna, economic potential, societies and (even more fascinating) miths and legends (for example, I really loved the description of Trinakarta -the Punjab-, with the mentions of the huge ants that defecate gold while building burrows in the sand of the desert).

In general, EB helps to better understand (and also to criticize) all that many of us learned at school or by personal research, specially by taking the glass out of romans and greeks and showing how rich where the "flows" (cultural, economic, demographic, etc.) in the Mediterranean and beyond (and that even romans and greeks were deeply influenced by that net of "flows"). That's the reason why I prefer to play with carthaginians, numidians, gandharans, lusitanians, parthians, seleukids and others; because I feel I am learning a lot in a particular way, a lot about how the ancient Mediterranean worked, about how it was linked to the iranian plateau and the central asian steppes, about ancient geography, ancient cultural trends, ancient politics and productive systems, about ancient religions... it's about a whole system, a whole interconnected world.

Therefore, although I obviously respect all those who just want to play with the legions lead by Caesar, Pompey and Marc Anthony (precisely because of the very "mediatic" ideas of Rome in TV and other video games, and also because, let's say it plainly, they're very effective in the battlefield), I can't help saying that "they are missing a lot". I want to see Marian Reforms, obviously, but I crave it just as I gasp to see the seleukid cataphracts, the argyraspides, the late parthian cataphracts, all the local italian mercenaries of the III century B.C. (like the leukanian infantry) and even the results of all the reworking the "Sauromatae" faction has lately had. I want to enjoy all that enormous depiction of the ancient world.

[koroshariaee2535]

The Marian legions are really just harcoded into my mind from playing Rome and Rome 2 for so long. I think it's as simple as that for me haha. It's like the birthday candles on the cake, they don't really serve a purpose but it doesn't feel like a birthday without them

Exactly dear madmatg .none of friends can make a small submod to add legionaes?by using DBM models?

[QuintusSertorius]

I want to see Marian Reforms, obviously, but I crave it just as I gasp to see the seleukid cataphracts, the argyraspides, the late parthian cataphracts, all the local italian mercenaries of the III century B.C. (like the leukanian infantry) and even the results of all the reworking the "Sauromatae" faction has lately had. I want to enjoy all that enormous depiction of the ancient world.

Agreed, I'm especially keen to see the local Italic units, not least because they're also regionals and mercenaries for other factions.

[demagogos nicator]

I am not huge Roman fanboy but when I play rome I prefer marians. However, it is not that much because of the soldiers themselves but rather by the fact that I more like and understand the overal Roman political, cultural and military situation of late Roman republic than earlier period.

[torzsoktamas]

Agreed, I'm especially keen to see the local Italic units, not least because they're also regionals and mercenaries for other factions.

Will we get some new italic units in the summer release?

[alin]

Will we get some new italic units in the summer release?

Yes.

[Iaius Statius Laurentius]

I definitely still want to see Imperial reforms (particularly the trait/government reforms, if you guys are looking into updating what existed in EB1). I enjoy the government reforms in general -- the various reforms into Eastern Imperial culture for different factions are nice, and while the Roman reforms represent the changes in Roman society I do like the notion of the principate reform as representing the Roman shift into quasi-Hellenistic monarchy. I probably care about that aspect (for role-playing reasons) more than the units per se.

The units... I would still like to see them, however with two caveats:

I. Obviously Imperial units are probably of the lowest possible priority in terms of things to finish, since they're rare and very late game.

II. If it turns out that EB2 is bumping up against the unit cap, I'd at least like to see a couple of Imperial units (armored Syrian archers, Praetorians, etc.) while whatever could be represented as an armor/visual upgrade (like standard legionaries) could do so.

So basically my vote comes down to "yes please if you could, but I understand a lot of other things have to come first." But just to make it clear that there is at least some desire for it :p

[Sylon]

Imperial Syrian Archers could be represented as an armour upgrade of regular Syrian Archers, assuming their design is similar to EB1.

Regular Syrian Archers

Imperial Eastern Archers

Imperial Archers are basically +1 armour and a different visual look over Syrian Archers (discounting the shield, of course).

[Satapatiš]

Yes.

So... One reason more for starting another campaign. This time maybe as Carthage.

Or once again work towards the Parthian invasion of Italy.

[Yerevan]

26,83% of reasonable people