UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[jurcek1987]

Scholarii should probably be renamed Kataphraktoi.

Koursores were horse archers in Nikephorean armies, but your description is that of an entirely different unit, interesting. If you could establish that they were used in this time period, they could replace Archontopoulai. They would be armed similar to cataphracts but with much lighter armour.

[j.a.luna]

I've found something about the middle eastern counterpart of the siphonatores, the naffatun. Currently they're available after the CANNONS event to fatimids, zengids and rum.

Historically, they were part of the abbasid forces, mentioned in the 9th and 12th century according to wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_...dad_%281157%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

So they should probably be a abbasid only unit, also pretty rare and not widely available in my opinion.

And all those changes for units, availability,siphonatores, naffatun,kursores... Are they ready for next release?(september) or we will implemented little a little in many release?
If were possible we could write about what units would add(f.e. For factions)

EDIT: about byzantine armies,here an interesant article,it is in spanish but it tell about different units and equipment byzantines and also other factions as cumans,germans,turks,mongols..
http://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/el-...ia-macedonica/

[Lifthrasir]

You need to be patient j.a.luna. You still don't realize the amount of work this can requier. The list of units to be removed is not finished yet and you already want to add new one. It doesn't sound right and organized to me.

[j.a.luna]

You need to be patient j.a.luna. You still don't realize the amount of work this can requier. The list of units to be removed is not finished yet and you already want to add new one. It doesn't sound right and organized to me.

Ok Lifth no problem!! only i want know how would be the organisation about mod
About removed units, for nordic faction as norwegian or danish, they have units that they are similar to spear militia(their name is very difficult write) and much spears units...could remove spear militia and urban spear militia for these factions and you have 2 free slots for other units more "realistic nordic" as laenderman(nordic landowner or knight),swordmen of Gotland, iceland auxiliars,some swedish mercenary units(currently there are not any swedish units and they were important in the middle age and really historical)...furthemore, as same venetians or pisan,the nordics(norvegians,danishs and swedishs) were sailors and they had much colonies in lands as england, germany,rus,poland,byzantine empire(varangians guard)... They should(together italian factions) some building that represent this( the important trade with other factions) for example in other mods much factions can build some colonies of other factions(HRE and rus can build norwegian colonies with improve trade and income and unrest order public and can recruit some nordic units because represent a little percent of nordic people that live in their country)
Also i think that norwegian and danish have too hirdsmen units...(king's hirdsmen,real hirdsmen,hirdsmen) i guess that one or two hirdsmens units is enought and would remove king's hirdmen because is similar to hirdsmen, and real hirdsmen not removed they are cool,strong and they have twohanded axe
And finally these units would need a realistic upgrade armour,at the beginning more viking look but after more european look, and currently other general problem for factions in general is that their general is in full plate armour(don't upgrades and pretty unrealistic,it is horrible see you have all units about s.XII and your general have full plate armour with arness about s.XV or XVI)

[jurcek1987]

@Jurcek: Sounds reasonable.. Got some sources? And opinions of others on this?

The current names are very inconsistent and mine are mostly just Hellenized versions (k instead of c).

Skoutatoi spearmen and swordsmen were actually a single unit armed with both weapons and named after their skouton shield. If the engine could handle both weapons they could be merged. If not, the swordsmen can be called Spathatoi (a generic name for swordsmen).
Athanatoi is an outdated name, bodyguards of this period were called Hetaireia (companions), or more specifically Basilikē Hetaireia (Imperial companions/guards).
Varangians could simply be called Varangoi, which is a Greek name for Norsemen or Varangoi Hetaireia to indicate their status as bodyguards. Another option is Pelekyphoroi which means axe bearers. Speaking of Varangians, it would probably be more accurate if they were only recruitable in Constantinople since they were exclusively emperor's bodyguards and not available to provincial governors. They could also have the "frightens nearby enemy infantry" trait, there are some reports when the enemy routed even before Varangians engaged their position. They should also have much higher upkeep, they weren't ordinary mercenaries who provided their own equipment, they were equipped from the royal armoury. There is also this:

"When the Byzantine Emperor died, the Varangians had the unique right of running to the imperial treasury and taking as much gold and as many gems as they could carry, a procedure known in Old Norse as polutasvarf ("palace pillaging").^[21] This privilege enabled many Varangians to return home as wealthy men, which encouraged even more Scandinavians to enlist in the Guard in Miklagarðr (Swedish = Miklagård = 'The Great City', i.e. Constantinople).^[21]"

[Lifthrasir]

I'm preparing a list of accurate Byzantine units with names, description of armours, weapons, shields, recruitment, etc... from the Komnenian period. It takes a bit of time because it's actually a synthesis of several historical sources. When it's ready, I'll post it but probably in the relevant thread about that faction you have created jurcek1987
It should be ready within a few days.

"When the Byzantine Emperor died, the Varangians had the unique right of running to the imperial treasury and taking as much gold and as many gems as they could carry, a procedure known in Old Norse as polutasvarf ("palace pillaging").^[21] This privilege enabled many Varangians to return home as wealthy men, which encouraged even more Scandinavians to enlist in the Guard in Miklagarðr (Swedish = Miklagård = 'The Great City', i.e. Constantinople).^[21]"

A famous example of this is Harald III of Norway who served as Varangiand guard before to become King of Norway and was killed during the battle of Stamford Bridge (Yorkshire) in 1066 (about 3 weeks before the battle of Hastings).

[jurcek1987]

Great . Looking forward to reading it, always been fascinated by medieval Romans.

[j.a.luna]

Lifth this submod would be interesant add to sship...it is about next heir ancillary and i think that solve the annoying problem about generals units and choose an heir for your kingdom(more appropiate)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Mod-for-SS6-4

[Lifthrasir]

I've done 6 posts in the relevant thread about ERE during the Komnenian period. Each of them is quite long but it was difficult for me to summarize all the infos I could find in a shorter way. I guess that if you're able to read all of them, that should give a precise idea about the starting roster for the Byzzies

I have no or very little information for the period between 1180 up to 1204 (4th Crusade taking Constantinople). But I guess that the roster should be quite similar for that period.

Byzzies took back Constantinople in 1261 and that's the Palaiologan period up to the fall of Constantinople in 1453. I'll post what I can find on that later on.

@ j.a.luna, yes I know it but I don't think it will be implemented in a short time.

[MWY]

@j.a.luna: I have a better solution prepared than simply a next heir ancillary.

[Lifthrasir]

Ooops, you're still full of surprise MWY

[j.a.luna]

@j.a.luna: I have a better solution prepared than simply a next heir ancillary.

Hehehe perfect MWY! I'm looking foward see its, it sure that will be a great improve for sship

[Gercog]

from where these pictures?

[j.a.luna]

If i don't wrong,they are from tsardoms total war
This mod have really cool units,but i guess that their creators don't give their work,same bellum crucis... It is a really shame

[Gercog]

If i don't wrong,they are from tsardoms total war
This mod have really cool units,but i guess that their creators don't give their work,same bellum crucis... It is a really shame

I am afraid this mod is not even released!

[j.a.luna]

A thing about units... When i played with norwegian they had viking drenghar in their local guard(building) and also after 1230 they continue with this unit...i think that this is historically incorrect, vikings in 1230...
The same with regnum siciliae and i guess that england, they have the unit dismounted miles and miles in local guards after 1230 or more..those units should dissapear and appear other units about this era...am i right?

[+Marius+]

but not too much armour because it would impede their mobility

Armor does not impede mobility to any noticeable degree.
There are no historical sources mentioning armor being heavy enough to soldiers for its weight to influence their purpose on the battlefield.


Also, in regards to 12th/13th/14th century armor protection;

Galbert of Bruges on the seige of Bruges (1127-1128)[attack on the gate of the town, protected by archers and infantry]: "By the special grace of God no one died in this multitude which was entering." and "I could not begin to describe the crowd of those who were hit and wounded." and "...as to those wearing an armor, they were exempted from wounds but not from bruises.."

Odo of Douil concerning the ill-fated second crusade (mid-12th century): "During this engagement the King lost his small but renowned royal guard; keeping a stout heart, however, he nimbly and bravely scaled a rock by making use of some tree roots which God had provided for his safety. The enemy climbed after, in order to capture him, and the more distant rabble shot arrows at him. But by the will of God his armor protected him from the arrows, and to keep from be captured he defended the crag with his bloody sword.."

From Joinville (mid 13th century), referring to the day following his being wounded in five places and his horse in fifteen by Saracen darts: "I got up, threw a quilted tunic over my back, clapped a steel cap on my head, and shouted out to our sergeants: 'by Saint Nicholas, they shall not stay here!'. My knights gathered round me, all wounded as they were, and we drove the Saracen sergeants away from our own machines and back toward a great body of mounted Turks who had stationed themselves quite close to the ones we had taken from them. I sent to the king for help, for neither I nor my knights could put on our hauberks because of the wounds we had received." - It seems the padded jackets were enough protection in this emergency, and that they could have fared even better against the enemy had they been able to wear their mail hauberks.


From an English chronicle of the Battle of Poitiers (1356): "Our bowmen of the vanguard stood safely in the marsh, lest the horsemen should attack them, yet even so those did prevail there somewhat. For the horsemen, as has been said, had the special purpose of overrunning the archers, and of protecting their army from the arrows. Standing near their own men they faced the archers with their chests so solidly protected with plate and mail and leather shields, that the arrows were either fended off directly or broken in pieces by the hard objects or were diverted upwards.."


When analyzing the historical sources, apparently no one in armor is dying from arrows going through it.
This is just a small sample of what's available from the chronicles.

[Swarbs]

Armor does not impede mobility to any noticeable degree.
There are no historical sources mentioning armor being heavy enough to soldiers for its weight to influence their purpose on the battlefield.

Maybe no historical sources, but plenty of modern scientific testing indicates that armour, particularly that covering the entire body, could influence mobility by causing soldiers to tire rapidly:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14204717

Ultimately arms and legs with 4-5 kg of armour on are going to be more difficult to move than those with no armour.

[j.a.luna]

Sship team, would it be possible add the submod battle for the baltic to sship? I tell it because it would great add their units roster for factions as rus,nogvorod,lithuania and denmark,norway... If you think that they are historically correct
And their icons at least their wonderful strat map models for campaing map as rus general,priest,princess,spy,assasin,diplomat...

[Lifthrasir]

Nope, due to limited free time, it's not planned to make any SSHIP submod for now. Regarding BftB especially, Caesar Clivus hasn't been around for a while (more than 2 years). That can be a problem to get the permission for use. Also, Russian factions models are from Rusichi and are already included in SS6.4 for most of them (unless my memory fails again ).