UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[AlberdoBalsam]

I really love these 1330-1350 frescios from castle of Avio. Although a bit stylized, still gives an accurate feeling of the period.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[j.a.luna]

Hello sship "followers" and developers, this thread is for proposal/ideas about make more historical the current units of sship mod, for new units or new unit rosters exist anothers thread called "units roster discussion".

For example talking about byzantine units:


-1. VARANGIAN GUARD
I think that unit should be an elite,loyal and intimidate unit, also very expensive to recruit, since the emperors paid large sums of money to him for his loyalty, and only that they could be recruited in the imperial palace of Constantinople (something historically correct).
The skills I think should be:
-Excellent morale
-very good stamina
-scares enemy troops
-effective against cavalry
-effective against armor

The stats should be hight melee attack( big axes), 0 shield armour, high melee armour, and high defensive skill ( much military training)

[Khevsur]

I think the number of warriors in elite units should be small

[Sete]

Can I offer feedback on Portuguese units?

[Cephalophore]

Can I offer feedback on Portuguese units?

Absolutely! Everyone at SSHIP wants to hear from the players. That's why we have these threads! We don't have any Portugal/Galicia experts afaik so we would appreciate any feedback. Although I don't work on units, I do want to know more about historical Portuguese peoples for when I get into names/ethnonyms/demonyms/rebels/etc.

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Sete - I've moved your post to the Portugal thread, it's better to keep it there - in this long one they may be overlooked in the future.
JoC

[Sete]

No worries, I have been looking at events and few more units, all historically sourced ,and tomorrow will add what I can to the Portugal thread.
Cant promise to write the desc correctly tho but I'll try

[AnthoniusII]

TGC's recruitment system could be transfered to feudal one with minor changes:
1st you have to separate the units :

• Palace Units. In this you have to point as secret source each faction capital and place a Palace building. In that building 2-3 units could be available from the start each 20-25 turns and should be very expensive. See in our HRE TGC preview our Domestici or our Tagmatic units for Romans.
• Knights ... Recruited from each castle they can also have long recruitment times (10 turns).
• Squires Recruited from castles they are Knights personal armies (not King's) and that includes spearmen, archers , crossbowmen, mounted lancers etc.
• City militias. Depends on the culture.
• Mercenaries : Recruited in Cities through Tavern or Mercenary building.

That way you avoid to have full stack armies of knights!

[kostic]

In my work to make certain AOR units (available to each faction if they occupy the territory) I also have to change the ability of "Caucasus Hillmen" and remove their javelins for one-handed axes.
I ask myself a question: shouldn't these Caucasus hillmen look like the Gelkis of the Georgian faction that Khevsur has offered us a representation of with his paintings ?

[Jurand of Cracow]

In my work to make certain AOR units (available to each faction if they occupy the territory) I also have to change the ability of "Caucasus Hillmen" and remove their javelins for one-handed axes.
I ask myself a question: shouldn't these Caucasus hillmen look like the Gelkis of the Georgian faction that Khevsur has offered us a representation of with his paintings ?

I fully agree.

[AnthoniusII]

AOR areas must be wide unless of realy unique unit. Explain. In TGC we have Armenian mercenaries or even AOR based Armenian nobillity inn 3 regions available for 3-4 factions.
But Slavic basic units (now are used in Rus roster untill they will be finallised) are available in 20 regions or more. That depends of the ethnic population % in each area no matter how spread it might be.

[Khevsur]

In my work to make certain AOR units (available to each faction if they occupy the territory) I also have to change the ability of "Caucasus Hillmen" and remove their javelins for one-handed axes.
I ask myself a question: shouldn't these Caucasus hillmen look like the Gelkis of the Georgian faction that Khevsur has offered us a representation of with his paintings ?

you can show me screen of Caucasian hilmen?

[Slaytaninc]

I fully agree.

As long as they're based on historical sources and art that can be backed up instead of original research.

[Khevsur]

Historically Mercenary Georgian warrior was a Georgian cavalry - Mokme Cavalry (Msakhureuli - In the era of the Mongol conquests), Mercerany infantry was peasant Spearmen.


As for the axeman warriors - I have presented them quite a lot - peasant and chukhchi infantry, peasant archers. in west georgia is known Two ax fighting style for close combat. I repeat, however, that in georgian Middle Ages the axes was not typical and was rarely used

[j.a.luna]

DESERT UNITS PROPOSAL FOR SSHIP 0.9.8


-BEDOUINS UNITS:

*Information about bedouins:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Bedouins (in Arabic, بدو‎; sing. بدوي) are nomadic Arabs who inhabit the deserts of the Middle East, the Arabian Peninsula (where they originate) and North Africa, where they expanded during the Arab conquests of the 7th century. , covering practically all the countries of the Mediterranean coast, from Egypt to Morocco. Today's Bedouins are organized into Badawi-speaking tribes, and consider themselves descendants of the Arab people.

The name "Bedouin" comes from the Arabic language, bedawi or badawi in the colloquial language, which means 'desert dweller'.




The Bedouins, to withstand the extreme heat of the desert, wear light clothing, tunics that allow air circulation and freedom of movement, providing protection from the sun and sand. Their dresses are designed to cover the entire body except for the face, hands, and feet.


The main dress for men is the white cotton thawb or gray tunic. Over the tunic, the men wear long silk cloaks or cotton jackets called kirbs. The jackets are open at the front and have leather clasps.


As the desert is a hostile environment, clothing works as protection against the sun and sand, at the cost of an increase in body temperature; In any case, wearing clothes increases the retention of body fluids (making it difficult for sweat to evaporate, which is retained with the help of clothing) and by acting as an insulator, interposing between the heat of the environment and the body itself. Paradoxically, when night falls in the desert, the temperature drops abruptly, showing that the amount of extra clothing is also a benefit.


On the other hand, white clothing, such as Bedouin robes, reflects more radiation, and if it goes better, in places with such high temperatures, all peoples living in the desert should wear white clothing. Well, it turns out that the Tuaregs, another people who live in the desert, are dressed in blue, they are even known as the blue men. It seems, therefore, that the color is not so important.

SILK ROAD IMAGES:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bedouin units could be recruited in the regional building called "caravansary" following the Silk Road and its various levels of buildings.
Of course they would be units with attributes of "combat bonus in desert areas" and with a lot of stamina due to their great resistance to heat and extreme climates.
All of North Africa, Egypt, the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula would be recruited as mercenaries, all of their units (infantry, cavalry and camels), they would be the most common mercenaries to find throughout the eastern/Muslim areas.
As for the regional building of caravansary, this example could be worth:
-Caravan stop---Recruit 1 unit Bedouin Infantry
-Caravansary---Recruit 1 unit Bedouin Infantry and 1 unit Bedouin cavalry
-Silk road Stop---Recruit 2 units Bedouin Infantry, 2 units Bedouin Cavalry and 1 unit Bedouin Camel Riders


This increase in Bedouin troops at the stops on the Silk Road would be due to the importance of this route and the money that moved on it, so it would have to be more protected and there would be more desert warriors for hire. I also think that this building in its last level (silk road stop) should increase the revenue coffers, maybe +500?. Also this last level should only be available in settlements that were historically stops on the silk road (see images), including Constantinople.




-CREATE 2 CAMEL UNITS--- Currently in the game there are 2 camel units (the camel Bedouins and the camel gunners of the Moors only for them), my proposal is to remodel the camel gunners for another more affordable camel unit, since the camel gunners are only for the Moors faction and a very late unit (just like the elephants with arquebuses or small cannons), replace them with a unit more in line with the principles of the game such as the "Tuareg Camel Spearmen" units of Tuaregs (another desert tribe different from the Bedouins) with a spear and scimitar with the ability to charge a camel, it would be recruitable only in North Africa and the Sahara desert and they would wear blue clothes characteristic of these tribes.
The other camel unit would be the current "Bedouin Camel Riders", camel archers with a secondary weapon, a sword.




-RENAME BERBER UNITS FOR MORE DIVERSITY IN YOUR AOR TROOPS AND REPRESENT MORE HISTORICAL BERBER TRIBES:


*Berber spearmen---Lamtuna Spearmen
*Berber ligh Cavalry--- Zenata Riders
*Berber archers---Zirids Archers
*Berber javelinmen---Sanhaja Skirmishers
+Berber pikemen---Tuareg Infantry


If you like to divide these units into the different Berber tribes, it may be fine, if not, you can continue to use the generic term "Berber" to include all these ethnic groups or tribes in one.


These Berber troops would also have desert combat bonuses and great Stamina.
They should be an AOR unit only recruitable in North Africa and hire them as mercenaries for at least 2 or 3 of the 5 existing units (currently only Berber Spearmen can be recruited as mercenaries), Berber Spearmen, Berber Archers and Berber Archers can be mercenaries. berber horsemen.




-TURCOPOLES AND TURKISH HORSE ARCHERS


*The Turkopoles should only be able to recruit as mercenaries in the Levante zone and should also be included in the unit roster of the Crusader states, the same for their dismounted unit. Historically they were recruited by the Crusaders and were Turkish converts to Christianity and some second or third generation converts served as auxiliary troops.
They should also be included in the building of Hetairea mercenary barracks for the Byzantines along with the Alans (as described by modder nikkosaiz)


*The Turkmen and Turkish Horse Archers along with the Turkish Foot Archers should be an AOR and mercenary unit in the Anatolia, Levant, Iran, Iraq, Armenia and Caucasus zones.




-PERSIAN UNITS


*They should be recruitable only in Iran and Iraq zones and be the basic troops of these zones along with Kharezmian nobles or cavalry as heavy cavalry, also create mercenary units in these zones.




-MILITIA UNITS


*Currently in the game in the city barracks for Muslim factions you can only create spearmen units, not archers or crossbowmen. There are only Andath militia and Surthah militia units for these factions without being able to count on militia units of archers or crossbowmen, Andath archers should also be included as recruitable as militia in all basic level barracks and militia crossbowmen units (qaws). ferengi units) for some Muslim factions such as the Moors and the Turks.

*Also exist some "unique spearmen" for muslim as "ARAB INFANTRY" or "URBAN MILITIA" , i think that arab infantry should be only for abbasids, zengids and egyptians ( more on less in the ARABIC peninsula), removed for the rest lf factions ( moors, rum and selyuks). Andath militia i agree that can be common for all muslim factions, and shurtah militia as a peasant militia.

For the called "Urban militia" is a moorish unit, exist in their unit roster but can be recalled "Andalusian urban miltia" and improve their aspect and weapons. A crossbowmen unit with little shields and swords as secondary weapons ( a strong urban militia for moors only recruitable in Andalusia lands, AOR unit)






I hope to help with all these proposals and together with the previous ones (Norman, Italian, Castilian, Byzantine, Moorish...) to make the mod more historical and fun to play .


I await your opinions .

[Saladin0912]

This is very nicely formatted and I agree with the points you made. I was surprised the unit "arab infantry" weren't included in the abbasid roster, but thats an easy fix. I want your opinion on the roster for the amount of swordsmen for the muslim factions. Besides the ahdath sword militia, do you think there should be more diversity in the arab peninsula for swordsmen? I found the Broken Crescent mod had the right idea on the weapon of choice for the arabs during the medieval times (scimitar obviously being the more popular). From Al-Yemen and Oman, up to iraq and syria, men and tribes would duel each other with swords, but I can't quite make sure what type of swordsmen should be integrated into SSHIP.

Maybe a dismounted Jaridah or Abtal variant would fill in the role, or maybe saracen/ghulam swordsmen?

[kostic]

I also appreciate the proposals of our friend j.a.luna and the moral support he gives us as modders.
There is so much to do and each unit work is so time-consuming...
I hope to gradually manage to integrate all these good ideas into SSHIP and I am counting on his help to provide me with documentation when I ask him !

[MedievalEnjoyer]

What's the reasoning behind the heavy nerfs to Bekh Druzhina?

In vanilla SS they were the best horse archers from the faction most focused on horse archers, but here they are worse than HAs that eg. Byz has available from the beginning. Cumans don't really get any better units either, so they're kinda stuck with their mediocre horse archers for the rest of the game. They lose to good quality spearmen 1v1 because their arrows barely do any damage, and that's a scenario where the ~halving of their range doesn't really matter. The flavour text says that they are "exceptional quality", but well... their performance really tells another story

[Jurand of Cracow]

What's the reasoning behind the heavy nerfs to Bekh Druzhina?

In vanilla SS they were the best horse archers from the faction most focused on horse archers, but here they are worse than HAs that eg. Byz has available from the beginning. Cumans don't really get any better units either, so they're kinda stuck with their mediocre horse archers for the rest of the game. They lose to good quality spearmen 1v1 because their arrows barely do any damage, and that's a scenario where the ~halving of their range doesn't really matter. The flavour text says that they are "exceptional quality", but well... their performance really tells another story

I don't think we can offer any good answer. The changes in the stats were done between SS and SSHIP 092, so before current team joining. There's been one change lowering the effectiveness of the cavalry charges, across the board.

[Khevsur]

I hope the units roster will ever be sorted by class, it is currently in chaos.

I think peasants who have 1 attack and 2 defense are better off not being in the game either. They decide nothing and take their seats in vain in the slots. Also the units run away from the battlefield in a very short time.