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Thread: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

  1. #181

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    other military question... in the game all crossbowmen have the attribute "very long missile or range", is it historically correct? the crossbowmen in the game have much range than other bowmen
    i know that the crossbow had more power to impact than the bow but I do not know whether the range should be as long...
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  2. #182
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    However, I also think that depending on the distance from shooting and the kind of bows and arows, it could cause more or less damages.
    You mean blunt trauma?
    Perhaps, but only at very close range and if shoot to the helmet.
    Plate armor is extremely good at absorbing impact, even frontal lance strikes are not reliable to deliver a proper punch if the strike is aimed at the breastplate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    1) Were the armies of England and other heavy longbow/vertical bow-using armies faced with enough un- or lightly-armoured opponents to justify the heaviest of ratio differences between archers and other combatants (melee/cavalry/artillery etc.)? Agincourt might not be a hugely typical example, but compositions of that nature (4:1 archers:men-at-arms) do appear in a few other places. Were the armies they faced really that vulnerable to arrow fire?
    Aside from the English, I do not believe any other faction relied so much on ranged infantry, keep in mind though, that the English longbowmen were very well armed and doubled as light/medium infantry that participated in melee engagements and also sieges...they weren't like other archers.

    As said before, their main task was to kill the enemy horses, they were far more important than the unarmored infantry because if the enemy heavy cavalry charge went through, the English would we wiped out easily;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Omer
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cocherel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Patay
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gerberoy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Formigny
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...ossini%C3%A8re

    As you can see, if the French cavalry charge was successful, the English were smashed, at Patay the French kill death ratio was over 25:1 and at Brossiniere the English managed to kill just 1 French knight during the whole course of the battle...which included a failed frontal charge uphill and in a forest.

    After these events the English started to increase the number of heavy infantry and decrease the number of English archers, because it became obvious their days were numbered.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    2) Were padded jackets really so good against arrows? As I say, my understanding of Falkirk was that, once they'd closed within a certain distance, the Welsh and English archers found themselves able to pierce the jackets of the Scottish spear/pikemen, who were wearing padded woollen coats. At the longer distance this protection had foiled the archers. However I can't find a source on this (I can find scant information about the battle itself anywhere) so I can't go back and check it.
    That is a very good question, the thing is, while broadhead arrows are reported as being able to penetrated padded armor, a good portion of late medieval English arrows were bodkin tipped because of all the armor present on the battlefield.
    Since bodkin tips are rubbish against padding, I believe that is the reason they failed;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CULmGfvYlso

    That is the reason why mail was so effective against arrows;

    Broadhead; cannot penetrate mail, can penetrate padding
    Bodkin; can penetrate mail, cannot penetrate padding

    ...and the knight wears both so even if the bodkin penetrates the armor(mail, even plate if it is lower quality) it will still be stopped by the padding(in case of plate, an aketon) underneath.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    3) Was the reason for the mass adoption of the crossbow and firearms not largely (but by no means solely) to do with the ease with which men could be taught to use them compared with the difficulty of mastering the longbow? That's what I've consistently read/heard on the subject, that this was the reason - as important as the improved penetrative power of both - for the change.
    That is true, but keep in mind that crossbows were relatively expensive(especially the high tier ones) and muskets+gunpowder was extremely expensive through the 15th and early 16th century.
    There were many reasons why they preferred them, for muskets it is probably the lethality of the musketball and for the crossbow it was the fact that the majority of engagements were not battles but sieges(and crossbow performs far better than a bows in sieges).


    Crossbows seriously need to be fixed in this game, their angle of fire is to limited so they are basically useless on walls...the only thing that they should excel at.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    I'm sure there are others but I'll leave it there for now. Any info or sources you can provide would be hugely helpful! Thank you again!

    Np, glad to help
    Last edited by +Marius+; August 27, 2015 at 06:57 AM.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    other military question... in the game all crossbowmen have the attribute "very long missile or range", is it historically correct? the crossbowmen in the game have much range than other bowmen
    i know that the crossbow had more power to impact than the bow but I do not know whether the range should be as long...
    That depends on the crossbow, the lower tier crossbow should have a similar range to lower tier bows, and high tier crossbow should have a similar range to high tier bows.

  4. #184

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    team sship,do you think create war elephants for selyuk empire?(or khoresmian if selyuk are replaced), with bow or spear and some strong attributes...i know that war elephants were unusual or few in middle age battles(more usual in ancient wars) but for example in the battle of Samarcanda they were employed against the mongol horde
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  5. #185
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    team sship,do you think create war elephants for selyuk empire?(or khoresmian if selyuk are replaced), with bow or spear and some strong attributes...i know that war elephants were unusual or few in middle age battles(more usual in ancient wars) but for example in the battle of Samarcanda they were employed against the mongol horde
    First provide any evidence that either of them ever used war elephants.

    Samarcanda is so close to India it's not even on the map.

  6. #186

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    i did see that Mike Loades video coming btw the uploader says "Probably worth noting that this is a leather-backed gambeson actually, soft leather has very good anti-piercing properties and probably greatly contributed to the effectiveness of the whole arming jacket when factoring in the fact the the hole the arrow made in the linen was probably very quickly stuffed with a thick heap of leather suede"


  7. #187
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Alright, how about this;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NMYv5wtNm8

    The man is shooting a 100 pound longbow at about 3-5m range(which is point to the absolute blank to the max ) at it.

    Now, you will see that some of the arrows penetrate while others do not(keep in mind the close range), however, watch until the end of the video and notice how deep the last shot went into the wood without the gambeson in the way.
    Last edited by +Marius+; August 27, 2015 at 10:04 PM.

  8. #188

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS



    that last shot even blew away some wood pieces, correct me if i am wrong but werent the bows used by the english somewhere around 150 pounds ?

  9. #189
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    English longbows were probably anywhere from 80lb onwards, there are the freaks found at the Mary Rose who are reported as being as much as 180 lb(that poundage, repeated constantly by enthusiasts, was not actually proposed by a person with a history degree but a theatrical actor with a longbow obsession), but those definitely weren't the norm.

    Drawing a 100+ lb bow is really hard;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrbyUxND6eo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLlBNnQg6Bs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqK5ZWFudXA

    Think about it, drawing a 180 lb bow would be the equivalent of doing a one handed pull up...and the archers had to be able to draw it repeatedly and rapidly many times.

    Even the strongest archers would have muscle issues after the 4th-5th go with such a powerful bow...the archers of the day had to be able to launch 10-20-30 volleys, which would require extreme endurance and strength.
    The archers weren't exactly well fed with protein...

    To make things even more hilarious, is that modern enthusiasts and "historians" so often exaggerate the poundage of various bows that they even propose a massive poundage of 160 lb for the Mongol bow...even though the Mongols today reconstruct their bows in the ancient ways and their poundage rarely exceeds 60-70lb.

    Shame nobody asked them about it

  10. #190

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    alright, what about the deformed archer bones ? iirc they were also from Mary Rose, it seems possible to me that a man training for years, maybe even from young age could develop extraordinary strength to allow him to use such a bow, then as a result some bones would have a diferent shape maybe in order to accomodate the unsually powerful muscle

    EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-2KLuAH4GY
    Last edited by Dekhatres; August 27, 2015 at 11:13 PM.

  11. #191
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    It won't affect the game but I need to feed my curiosity.

    Most of the sources I can find about the medieval longbow say that it was about 6 feet (1.8m) long.
    Some go up to almost 7 feet (about 2.00m)

    Here is a good (I think but I might be wrong) description of it:
    The medieval Longbow was made from sapwood on the outer-side and heartwood on the inside, this gave the body of the longbow called the stave a natural spring which helped produce a powerful firing action. The typical length of a longbow was around 6 feet and they were designed to be in proportion to the height of the archer using them. In the centre of the Longbow stave was a thicker area that was designed to improve grip. The longbow was held in the left hand, the right hand would be used to drawback the string which was usually made of gut or hemp. The string of the Longbow was looped over each end of the longbow stave, and the centre of the string was also strengthened at what was called the nocking point.
    It also seems that it requiered about 10 years to train a longbowman and they were the most paid soldiers under the Edward III reign.

    I've also found other sources saying that the size was between 65.5 and 80 inches (1.66 to 2.00m) with a draw weight between 50 and 100 lbs

    Anyway, I'm just wondering what the size of an European people was in average during the Middle Ages? According to the text above, the longbow was designed in proportion of the archer's heigh.
    Some sources say that before the 12th century, the average size was 1.74 m but decreased from the 12th to the 16th century, down to 1.67 m in average. So, if all these facts are correct, that means that we can consider reasonnably the length of the longbow around 6 feet (1.8m) in average.

    Regarding the necessary strength, medieval soldiers were in much better physical condition and much stronger than today's common people.

    Finally, I've found this source but I'm not sure how accurate it is: http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf

    In conclusion, I don't know what to think


    Last edited by Lifthrasir; August 28, 2015 at 01:52 AM.
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  12. #192
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    alright, what about the deformed archer bones ? iirc they were also from Mary Rose, it seems possible to me that a man training for years, maybe even from young age could develop extraordinary strength to allow him to use such a bow, then as a result some bones would have a diferent shape maybe in order to accomodate the unsually powerful muscle

    EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-2KLuAH4GY

    I did not say that they did not exist, I merely stated that they very probably weren't the norm.

    The deformed bones were because of constant use of the same bone/muscle group.
    You would get the same if you went to the gym and lifted weights with only one hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    It won't affect the game but I need to feed my curiosity.

    Most of the sources I can find about the medieval longbow say that it was about 6 feet (1.8m) long.
    Some go up to almost 7 feet (about 2.00m)
    It depended on the height of the archer, a longbow is a hand taller than its user.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Anyway, I'm just wondering what the size of an European people was in average during the Middle Ages? According to the text above, the longbow was designed in proportion of the archer's heigh.
    Some sources say that before the 12th century, the average size was 1.74 m but decreased from the 12th to the 16th century, down to 1.67 m in average.
    The most rapid part of that height decrease was in the 16th century onwards, during the 15th century the height was still pretty close to 175, with people in the urban areas being shorter and the people in the rural areas being taller(in certain areas as tall as modern men).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Regarding the necessary strength, medieval soldiers were in much better physical condition and much stronger than today's common people.
    They were hardier, far more resilient, but their strength relied on the availability of protein in their diet.

    This is extremely important, japanese samurais had a lacking of animal protein in their diet and because of that they had a smaller muscle mass than the average French woman and were about 10-15 cm shorter.
    Their rigorous training would not have helped them that much in lifting anything heavy or drawing a heavy bow.

    European nobles, on the other hand, ate as much as 3.8lb(1.7 kg) of meat per meal...per...meal.
    Needless to say, they had a major upper hand when it comes to sheer muscle mass and height, often were as tall as 180, sometimes 190 and we have some examples of 200+ cm.

    So yes, a medieval archer could get into a modern barfight and wipe the floor with everyone from the counter to the parking lot, however, I still doubt his ability to draw 180lb repeatedly over 10-20-30 times.
    Last edited by +Marius+; August 28, 2015 at 08:36 AM.

  13. #193
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    This stuff is like crack to me; I can't read enough about it. Thanks so much for all the info pulled together over the last few days/posts. I'll hopefully get a chance to give it all a proper read either tomorrow or in the next few days. Unfortunately I can't rep you again so soon, but thank you again anyway~!

  14. #194

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    ^ this is Stainless Steel afterall, so longbowmen, overpowered cavalry and byzantines discussions are the norm

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    ^ this is Stainless Steel afterall, so longbowmen, overpowered cavalry and byzantines discussions are the norm
    And quite right, too!

    Interesting that height in medieval times is mentioned. I'd wondered about some of the recorded heights of certain medieval figures. The Plantagenet kings of England in particular all seemed to be notably tall, with Edward I "Longshanks" supposedly around 6'4" which is considered tall today, never mind back then. I don't know if the story is true, but apparently he paid a visit to a baron who had decided to rebel against him and upon seeing the sheer size of his king, this baron had a heart attack and died on the spot. King Edward had not laid a hand on him.

    Another who sticks out to me is a son of King Edward III: Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence. He was a noted tourney champion, and apparently was seven feet tall. What I find interesting is reading that this apparently was not unheard of; I suppose 1.7kg of meat per meal will do that to a person. To me, that just says that we're not eating enough meat nowadays.

  16. #196
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Yeah, nobles tended to be taller, sometimes tall as giants;



    A hefty 6ft 10 inches or 208 cm in height...and not skinny tall, he was manly tall.

  17. #197

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Sship team, do you know something about new rosters or reskin for factions or units for the next release? I guess that,currently, it will have a new serbian roster and reskin for ghulams,crusaders and african warriors but.. Something more? It will be interesant that Lifthrasir or MWY tell us about this theme, thank you
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  18. #198
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    There will also be the Western Unit Overhauln v4.0 from GeMiNi][SaNDy with the Real Shields Project v0.33 from Nikossaiz as I got the permission from both.

    If I have the time, I'll also implement these shields for Pisa and Aragon factions. As there aren't included in DLV, they uses respectively Milan and Spain textures which is not really accurate. But for that, I'll need to make some researches about the symbols they used on their shields.
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  19. #199

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    if possible make a unit as war cleric?They had their heyday from the Carolingian period to the thirteenth century , including even archbishops participating in Germany had been established using as a weapon a club, but they were accompanied with miter on his helmet , sword, shield, spear etc.
    Danish warrior bishop for the Baltic Crusades. (XIII century)


    Hermann of Dorpat Prince - Bishop in the Battle of Lake Peipus 1242 .It was one of the commanders of the Livonian Confederation in the Battle of Lake Peipus 1242, was Prince-Bishop of Dorpat, participated in the fighting in the Baltic crusades against the pagan peoples of Prussia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, expanding to states Russians. There were bishops who participated in military events, many synods and ecumenical councils as the I and II Lateran twelfth century prohibit clerics take up arms and go to war, the Concordat of Worms of 1122 gave some restrictions on this matter, bishops were the first to break the ban, known example is the Frankish bishops accompanying Charlemagne in their campaigns, Sisnando Menendez bishop of Compostela in the Battle of Fornelos 968. Odon Bishop of Bayeux Battle of Hastings in 1066, the bishops of Avila, Segovia and Siguenza battle of Alarcos in 1195, the archbishop of Toledo Rodrigo Jiménez de Rada in the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa 1212, Bishop Felipe de Dreux who fought against Richard I Lionheart and next to Philip II Augustus the Battle of Bouvines 1214, the bishops of the Hohenstaufen court of XIII century etc.

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  20. #200
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Kahvi has made a model (check the thread dedicated to his unit - 1st post). It's not integrated yet in any roster. Not sure there's a point to make a unit for them. Sure they exited somehow but not as a specific unit. If you look carefully the paintings from that period, there's only one war cleric represented, never a full unit. I think it would be better ti use them as an officer model for some units instead. The vanilla officers are poor quality anyway.
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