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Thread: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

  1. #881

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Does anyone know why Portuguese Foot Knights are so strong? They have an 18 armour value even though they're wearing half plate, the other poleaxe knight units have 14 armour value. They've also got 9 attack instead of 8. They will beat Gothic Foot Knights in a 1v1 haha
    Last edited by The Englishman; February 06, 2023 at 01:08 PM.
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  2. #882
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Thanks for reporting. I admit I haven't looked closely at the late units yet.

  3. #883

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    A little proposal for sship team, specific for kostic units, you know that in the vainilla stainless steel there was a oriental unit recruitable in North Africa and middle east called " Tuareg Camel spearmen", currently in sship mod this unit dont exist, only we have a camel unit called "Bedouin Camel Riders", as mercenaries in camels (mounted archers).. But also still exist a unit in sship called "Camel gunners" an unhistorical and very late unit that i think should be removed or replaced by "Tuareg Camel spearmen", i think that could be an easy work for kostic give them spears instead muskets and with a blue appearance as tuareg tribesmen usually wear (berbers), they could be also mercenaries and also be recruited in caravansary buildings ( silk roads) , we would have this tribe represent in the game ( together with bedouins) and 2 units of camels (mounted archers and spearmen).

    Links:

    https://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/..._Spearmen.html
    https://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Tuareg_C...W_unit%29.html

    Opinions??? It would be possible for the next release?

    Here some images:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #884

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    The white company (a mercenary company made up of men that went without jobs in a lull in the hundred years war ca 1360) was famous in italy for using 2-3 men at arms to a single lance in a phalanx formation. It would be cool if the free company men at arms would show this by changing their weapon from a poleax to a pike and make them able to make the spear wall.

  5. #885
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    I'll note your ideas for later guys!

  6. #886

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    In the new edition it would be nice to see a new texture of the units of the Moors/Andalusians/Berbers- like A Medieval Mod: 1191. I think they are the only ones somewhat "left to their own devices" with the old textures from MED2.

  7. #887

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Jurand and sship team a little issue about recruitment of Turcopoles in the game.
    Currently i see them in lands as Persia (Iran and Irak) and Arabia ( From Damascus to Merv), all of them are mercenaries ( horse archers and archers), in many historical documents says than fought in Holy lands and surroundings against the enemies of the crusaders, these were mostly Seljuks converted to Christianity and were part of the armies of Jerusalem and military orders such as the Templars and Hospitallers.

    My proposal is to replace the current Turcopoles horse archers mercenaries from the Persian and Arabian regions with Turkmen mercenaries (Turkmen horsearchers) and the Turcopoles archers with Turkish archers.


    Turcopole mercenaries could be recruited in Anatolia, the Holy Lands, and lands near Georgia.
    They should also be an AOR unit or factional unit for Jerusalem since the light troops and auxiliaries of the crusaders mainly rely on them, as well as military religious orders such as the Templars. Furthemore, the Byzantines were the first to use these Turcopoles as auxiliary troops through their general Taticius in the 11th century.
    I leave some interesting webpage about the Turcopoles.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/elretoh...zadas/%3famp=1

    https://www.labrujulaverde.com/2020/...enes-militares

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turcopole
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  8. #888

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Jurand and sship team a little issue about recruitment of Turcopoles in the game.
    Currently i see them in lands as Persia (Iran and Irak) and Arabia ( From Damascus to Merv), all of them are mercenaries ( horse archers and archers), in many historical documents says than fought in Holy lands and surroundings against the enemies of the crusaders, these were mostly Seljuks converted to Christianity and were part of the armies of Jerusalem and military orders such as the Templars and Hospitallers.

    My proposal is to replace the current Turcopoles horse archers mercenaries from the Persian and Arabian regions with Turkmen mercenaries (Turkmen horsearchers) and the Turcopoles archers with Turkish archers.


    Turcopole mercenaries could be recruited in Anatolia, the Holy Lands, and lands near Georgia.
    They should also be an AOR unit or factional unit for Jerusalem since the light troops and auxiliaries of the crusaders mainly rely on them, as well as military religious orders such as the Templars. Furthemore, the Byzantines were the first to use these Turcopoles as auxiliary troops through their general Taticius in the 11th century.
    I leave some interesting webpage about the Turcopoles.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/elretoh...zadas/%3famp=1

    https://www.labrujulaverde.com/2020/...enes-militares

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turcopole
    @kostic and @Jurand some ideas or opinions about my previous posts ? Anachronistic camel gunners and recruitment of turcopoles mercenaries...
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  9. #889
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    @kostic and @Jurand some ideas or opinions about my previous posts ? Anachronistic camel gunners and recruitment of turcopoles mercenaries...
    I agree with the camel gunners. When we get to have more time, and we come up with some replacement for the late era, and @kostic would be willing to create that replacement, I would be in favour of removing camel gunners. They look more 19th century to me.
    Turcopoles - I have too little knowledge to say something decive. Plus I've got plenty to do - coding recruitment of some units @kostic have prepared, preparing new buildings, coding scripts. Plenty.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Englishman View Post
    Does anyone know why Portuguese Foot Knights are so strong? They have an 18 armour value even though they're wearing half plate, the other poleaxe knight units have 14 armour value. They've also got 9 attack instead of 8. They will beat Gothic Foot Knights in a 1v1 haha
    I've got no idea :-(

  10. #890

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I agree with the camel gunners. When we get to have more time, and we come up with some replacement for the late era, and @kostic would be willing to create that replacement, I would be in favour of removing camel gunners. They look more 19th century to me.
    Turcopoles - I have too little knowledge to say something decive. Plus I've got plenty to do - coding recruitment of some units @kostic have prepared, preparing new buildings, coding scripts. Plenty.


    I've got no idea :-(
    Camel gunners--- Yeah, good decision! For me also look them very late unit and no fit for current game... I think that solution is rework them into "Tuaregs" with spear and swords, @kostic could take the same model as a reference and just change his weapons and give him some blue robes when he has free time...

    -Turcopoles--- Ok when you have time but I have put decisive information on the 3 webpages mentioned above in addition to the historical documents that I have read about them where they are cited as auxiliary troops used by the crusaders in Holy Land. Crusader states and Templar orders used them extensively in their armies to make up for the lack of light and mobile troops to counter attacks by Muslim light cavalry and horse archers, these Turcopols were Seljuk/Persian converts to Christianity but fought in the same Muslim style , it can be said that the Byzantines also used them in their armies and recruited them in Anatolia against the Turks. The captain of these Turcopoles was the "Turcopolier", a highly respected figure among the Crusaders and often under the tutelage of the Templars or Hospitallers.

    Of course when you have more time, you could remember to take a look at these posts, I'm just trying to save you the work of historical information and its correct implementation in sship game
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  11. #891
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    When an early period unit is replaced by another late period unit does it take up 2 slots?




    I don't understand why there is a need for light swordsman, Merchant Cavalry.
    also, several types of nearly identical spearmen militia - when they are one class... naqivchagari and others...
    Last edited by Khevsur; June 23, 2023 at 06:14 AM.
    Georgian Medieval Shields By Khevsur

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/017uq....2023.rar/file

  12. #892
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    When an early period unit is replaced by another late period unit does it take up 2 slots?
    I don't understand why there is a need for light swordsman, Merchant Cavalry.
    also, several types of nearly identical spearmen militia - when they are one class... naqivchagari and others...
    Yes, if there're two units from early and late era, they take up 2 slots.
    Spear Militia are the same for a number of factions, while Georgian units are almost always for one faction (but the Caucasus Hillmen now)

  13. #893
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yes, if there're two units from early and late era, they take up 2 slots.
    Spear Militia are the same for a number of factions, while Georgian units are almost always for one faction (but the Caucasus Hillmen now)
    If there are not enough slots, it is bad for changing periods. I made the periods with perfect accuracy, but if the slots are not enough, I am thinking what to do. Probably should limit the dismounted version of cavalry and infantry militia versions. Also common units and units without fractions should be limited. Units like merchant cavalry should also be removed - did they play any historical role in wars?
    Georgian Medieval Shields By Khevsur

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/017uq....2023.rar/file

  14. #894

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    sship team as you would see eliminate the "spearmen" unit and have only spear militia and spearmen sergeants, it would be to save a unit for one more free slot and thus be able to create other AOR units for example the famous Flemish militia or flemish Goedendag in the regions of the Netherlands and around France.
    I think the spear militia unit when we improve amour upgrades can be very similar to spearmen.
    opinions?
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  15. #895
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    What do you think about increasing units Defence? Battles remain very fast. Units escape from battlefield in short time. This makes maneuvering difficult.





    @j.a.luna
    It will be better to make units. that had a historical role-according to social classes. Fewer fictional units would be nice.

  16. #896
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    It is known that the Byzantines often hired Georgian cavalry. Once the Georgian mercenary cavalry destroyed the Norman cavalry in italy- Brindizium (John Kinnamos). Georgian cavalry many times helped Byzantium to suppress rebellions and fight against Turks. Georgian Cavalry were bodyguards in Byzantine army

    Georgian cavalry also fought in Mongol wars.The main role in the capture of Baghdad was played by the Georgian cavalry.(archbishop Wilhelm Adam - Dominican Order)

    Georgian cavalry also fought in the crusader wars.Rene de Chatillon often hired Georgian cavalry. European and Arabic sources describe Georgian warriors as tall and big body , dangerous and strong brave warriors. They write that the cavalry of Georgians was a close formation of large spears.Charge of the Georgian cavalry was very strong and devastating (Michael Psellos,William of Tyre,George Pachymeres,Ibn al-Dawadari, Marco Polo ,François de Belleforest ,Jean Bodel, "Melik Danishmend" and others... )

    And at this time there are no Georgian cavalry as mercenaries anywhere in this game. There are only Georgian light archers. I hope this gets fixed



    Frankish mercenary cavalry should also be in Georgia. Georgian kings often hired them
    Last edited by Khevsur; July 09, 2023 at 09:54 AM.

  17. #897

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    @Jurand and @kostic is possible make some changes in Iberia? About units...
    - Make unit "Jinetes" as mercenaries in all Iberia , they were the typical light cavalry in Iberia and warfare style, i think could be mercenaries for all factions, also kostic make them as a mix of christian/moors unit model ( similar to lusitanian javalinmen), and Iberia have mercenary infantry but not cavalry...

    - Also i think moors unit roster need a little change, in my campaign they had a lot of arab infantry... I think this arab troops should be very limited ( More in Arabia and surroundings) , they could have more african troops ( From Sigilmalsa for example)
    Also Granadine Jinetes need a rework unit model and granadine mounted crossbow same ( andalusian Jinetes is more generic)
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  18. #898
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by William the Silent View Post
    Late 1200's I mostly see opponent armies like this.
    Should urban troops not be in the majority?
    Pisa army:
    Yeah, this is some 300 turns, I don't think we've spent much time cosidering this this period. It's how it was in the base Stainless Steel. Thanks for reporting, this is a good insight - and indeed it's why we're collecting the save games: to see how the situation evolves after so many turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    @Jurand and @kostic is possible make some changes in Iberia? About units...
    - Make unit "Jinetes" as mercenaries in all Iberia , they were the typical light cavalry in Iberia and warfare style, i think could be mercenaries for all factions, also kostic make them as a mix of christian/moors unit model ( similar to lusitanian javalinmen), and Iberia have mercenary infantry but not cavalry...
    - Also i think moors unit roster need a little change, in my campaign they had a lot of arab infantry... I think this arab troops should be very limited ( More in Arabia and surroundings) , they could have more african troops ( From Sigilmalsa for example)
    Also Granadine Jinetes need a rework unit model and granadine mounted crossbow same ( andalusian Jinetes is more generic)
    at some point we may think about such changes.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 29, 2023 at 08:59 AM.

  19. #899

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    @Jurand and @kostic talking about the Vainilla unit called "Catalans" that currently appear in the invasion script or Jurand called "Catalan invasions" , this unit have a vainilla unit model and they want to represent the almogávars! , which our friend kostic did already very well, therefore there would be 3 options to make it more realistic and not duplicate units in the game:

    1. Delete them and leave another free slot for new units.
    2. Remake the unit with a new unit model, calling them for example "Catalan infantry" or something similar, with other types of weapons than the almogávares (heavier infantry)


    3. Rework with a new and updated unit model, although I keep saying that this role was already played by the Almogavars themselves, "the Catalan company" (from the kingdom of Aragon) was mainly made up of Almogavars. The "Catalans" could be depicted similar to the Italian marinae, made up of crossbows and small axes/swords as medium infantry.
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  20. #900
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    @Jurand and @kostic talking about the Vainilla unit called "Catalans" that currently appear in the invasion script or Jurand called "Catalan invasions" , this unit have a vainilla unit model and they want to represent the almogávars! , which our friend kostic did already very well, therefore there would be 3 options to make it more realistic and not duplicate units in the game:

    1. Delete them and leave another free slot for new units.
    2. Remake the unit with a new unit model, calling them for example "Catalan infantry" or something similar, with other types of weapons than the almogávares (heavier infantry)


    3. Rework with a new and updated unit model, although I keep saying that this role was already played by the Almogavars themselves, "the Catalan company" (from the kingdom of Aragon) was mainly made up of Almogavars. The "Catalans" could be depicted similar to the Italian marinae, made up of crossbows and small axes/swords as medium infantry.
    I think @kostic will take note.
    on the margin - I'm personally against the "marinae" type units. They are depicted in the Med2 engine as "ships". They didn't fight as regular units, and they should not be in this (supposedly historical) mod.

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