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Thread: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

  1. #161
    Boogie Knight's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Marius Marich View Post
    When analyzing the historical sources, apparently no one in armor is dying from arrows going through it.
    This is just a small sample of what's available from the chronicles.
    This has always puzzled me, and probably many other people too. If arrows aren't killing people in armour, then what is? And if arrows are that useless against armoured opponents, then why are the English using the longbow up until the mid 17th century, by which time the musket had become the weapon of choice across Europe, England included, and armour had developed to such a degree as to have been, under the right conditions, bullet-proof? My understanding was that firearms and crossbows were easier to train men to use while the longbow could require a lifetime to master - so again, why did they enjoy such a long period of use?

    I can understand their modern-day prestige being put down to romantic tales of Robin Hood and the ability they supposedly granted the common man - that of levelling the playing field with the evil, conniving overlord - but that doesn't explain the fact that their practical use spanned such a large period of time and was so widespread, at least among the English, during that time.

    From what I remember reading of the battle of Falkirk, the Welsh archers found their arrows were largely useless against the padded jackets of the Scottish pikemen/spearmen (arranged in schiltron) at a certain distance, which they had to keep for fear of the Scottish knights and archers. But once the Scottish knights and most of the archers had been driven off by the English knights, the Welshmen were able to close to a much shorter distance and at that point apparently found their arrows penetrating quite easily, which allowed them to thin out the Scottish ranks enough for the English knights to move back in and finish the job. It should be stressed that from what I remember, this was a very short distance indeed.

    I also recently had a flick through an Osprey book on the subject of the longbow, which mentioned tests run by the English Warbow Society using longbows crafted to the specifications we have on medieval longbows. The EWS don't usually partake in the use of medieval bows and are quick to distance themselves from that misconception, but on this occasion they apparently did give them a try and found that a bodkin arrow fired from a longbow penetrated absolutely anything put in front of it; mail, plate, padding, leather and the combination of all of these a medieval warrior would've worn. The findings they reported were that absolutely nothing was immune to a bodkin fired directly from a longbow beneath a certain range. That last part is important, obviously, but battles such as Falkirk clearly provided archers with the conditions necessary to achieve penetration.

    Please don't think I'm actively contradicting anything you've said or trying to start anything other than a discussion; those sources you've cited are pretty unambiguous. I'm questioning rather than arguing, and as you seem to know so much about it I'd like to see what your take is on these things.

    Mods, if this is the wrong place for this discussion, just say the word and I'll see about removing this post.

  2. #162
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    No problem for me to discuss here as long it is constructive. Weapons are part of the units, aren't they?
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  3. #163

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    i just converted some defence skill points into armor on some units and everything plays out really well, archers can massacre low armored units but against heavy armoured they are useless, i think it makes sense that a soldier wearing good armor wouldnt need to dodge or parry much since his armor will take most hits while he can focus on attacking, on some units i completly put all points in armor like on King's Men witch had like 11 armor and 7 defence, now they have 18 armor 0 defence, they completly rely on armor wich makes AP units kinda op but should be fine once i am done removing ap and increasing attack by a 1 point or 2 on some units

    did the same on many armoured cav units, archers can no longer easily kill bodyguards

  4. #164

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    and add some qualities for units that currently they lack...for example varangian guard should have frighty nearby enemies
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  5. #165

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    maybe heavy cavalry could have "frighten foot" too ?? it could represent the fear wich foot troops had to overcome in order to resist the charge
    Last edited by Dekhatres; August 25, 2015 at 07:07 PM.

  6. #166
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    That'd make heavy cav even more OP. The player can end a battle with a heavy cav charge into a melee, with added morale malus it'd be even more crushing. A heavy cav unit can wipe out an infantry unit in a single charge one on one anyway.

  7. #167

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    well it's strange, i remember very well armenian heavy cav charging into my foot ghulams and me sighing "ok 1 unit of ghulams gone" then surprisingly the ghulams somehow lost like only 40 men and slaughtered the cav in melee, felt both happy and sad at the same time, another instance i remember is when i smashed with bodyguard into a byzantine unit of huscarls and barely killed half of them, had to charge several times to wipe them

    is SS finally turning me into heavy cav fanatic too ? hmm

  8. #168

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    and also change some weapons for the several mailed knights, for instance mailed knights of danish and norwegian could have a two-handed axe(for their culture), HRE, Hungary and Poland mailed knights with a little axe or maces with shield(HRE also could have two handed sword) and the rest(england,france, castille,aragon,venezians,pisa...)a combination into swords with shields,little axes or two handed sword...( it is a opinion for give to sship more variety and historical sources,not only for all mailed knights a two handed axe..)
    this can also apply to the feudal knights
    if someone have ideas for units(weapons,armours,qualities...)post here please


    look this pavise crossbowmen, it is so cooooool!!!xD


    Last edited by j.a.luna; August 26, 2015 at 06:25 AM.
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  9. #169

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I am agree with J a Luna

  10. #170

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeluco96 View Post
    I am agree with J a Luna
    thank you man!!! look this pictures about feudal knights of Lord Hamilton


    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...orkshop/page12
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Workshop/page6
    i would add other types of weapons as i said in my last post
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  11. #171
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    You need to consider alos the time when these weapons were actually used. For example, the 2 hand sword wasn't used during the 12th century.
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  12. #172

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    You need to consider alos the time when these weapons were actually used. For example, the 2 hand sword wasn't used during the 12th century.
    Ok,so 2 hand sword for upgrades units,for s.XIII or s.XIV...but other weapons as maces,swords,little axes,2 hand axe...for more variety of the game and it depends culture faction
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  13. #173
    Boogie Knight's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post


    Are these axes accurate? I was asking about them on the EBII forum a while ago in relation to some Ethiopian units in that mod. We have evidence to suggest - and essentially confirm - that two-bitted axes were used in some parts of the world, such as Africa and Asia, as long ago as ~250BC. But I've heard nothing of their use in medieval Europe, despite the stereotypical (but inaccurate) portrayal of their use by Vikings.

  14. #174

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    well if such a large scandinavian man comes at me with a twohanded axe like that picture i would surly run.

  15. #175

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Ok,so 2 hand sword for upgrades units,for s.XIII or s.XIV...but other weapons as maces,swords,little axes,2 hand axe...for more variety of the game and it depends culture faction
    For western european knights:
    no maces for the 12. century, no 2 handed axes either. We have them in the game right now for mailed knights, and I think we will perhaps keep them for variety, but the most used weapon by far was the sword, followed by a 1handed axe.
    Maces, 2 handed axes and warhammers had a big hight of use when plate armour was invented, since swords where mostly useless against it.

    At least according to my sources, feel free to correct me.

  16. #176

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    For western european knights:
    no maces for the 12. century, no 2 handed axes either. We have them in the game right now for mailed knights, and I think we will perhaps keep them for variety, but the most used weapon by far was the sword, followed by a 1handed axe.
    Maces, 2 handed axes and warhammers had a big hight of use when plate armour was invented, since swords where mostly useless against it.

    At least according to my sources, feel free to correct me.
    ok MWY, but right now all mailed knigts in the game have 2 hand axe(a big axe and in their back a shield), i guess that is too much,all of them are equal, if you could give it more variety(according to their culture or customs) it would be great,don´t you?
    for example the nordic people and eastern europe
    they were more likely to use large axes and little axes that for example Iberian factions
    Last edited by j.a.luna; August 26, 2015 at 04:53 PM.
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  17. #177
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Swarbs View Post
    Maybe no historical sources, but plenty of modern scientific testing indicates that armour, particularly that covering the entire body, could influence mobility by causing soldiers to tire rapidly:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14204717

    Ultimately arms and legs with 4-5 kg of armour on are going to be more difficult to move than those with no armour.
    No, not "plenty of", barely any tests of those kinds were done.

    The test you showed is also completely flawed, that is not a soldier, that is some first world sheltered feminine college student from the University of Leeds.

    You could put that man in regular winter clothing and he would collapse after a mile or two.

    Also, nearly all modern tests regarding history themes of any kind are completely flawed in many ways, written historical sources is where the main point of information should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    This has always puzzled me, and probably many other people too. If arrows aren't killing people in armour, then what is?
    Other men with melee weapons...and preferably armor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    And if arrows are that useless against armoured opponents, then why are the English using the longbow up until the mid 17th century, by which time the musket had become the weapon of choice across Europe, England included,
    The English are using the longbow to murder anything that has no proper armor and most importantly, to murder enemy horses.
    Reason?

    You see, the English started abandoning their focus on heavy cavalry during their wars with the Scots, this resulted in the French being arguably superior in mounted combat because, on the other hand, the French did the opposite(focused on mounted combat).

    So to deal with this obvious superiority of French heavy cavalry, the English found a way to neutralize it, namely to kill the horses with rapid archery fire and to force the surviving French knights to fight on foot...and fighting on foot is English knights territory during those times.
    Not only that, but after being dismounted, the French would have to resort to their sidearms(or they would use their lances as pikes) which were one handed maces/hammers or swords.
    The English on the other hand were equipped to fight on foot, which means that on the other side of that field you have a thick formation of English fully plated knights wielding various two handed polearms(halberds, bills, poleaxes) pretty much making them a giant meatgrinder for the ill equipped French knights.

    Also, the English started abandoning the longbow already mid/late 15th century because it was becoming useless on the battlefield...the early firearms are massively underrated in their effectiveness.

    The Military Revolution in 16th Century Europe (p. 12): "Blaise de Monluc found that his pikemen came to no harm when they closed on a body of English archers at Boulogne in October 1524, writing that 'their arrows did no harm at all'.

    The arquebus/musket was a far more powerful weapon than the bow, otherwise it would not have replaced it even with its shorter range, explosive misfires and reduced accuracy.




    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    My understanding was that firearms and crossbows were easier to train men to use while the longbow could require a lifetime to master - so again, why did they enjoy such a long period of use?
    The fact is, that most of Europe choose the crossbow over the bow.
    Why?
    Many reasons, some probably still unknown.
    We do know, however, that the crossbow was extremely effective if used properly in units, even the Mongol horse archers got their asses handed to them by Hungarian light crossbowmen at Mohi.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    From what I remember reading of the battle of Falkirk, the Welsh archers found their arrows were largely useless against the padded jackets of the Scottish pikemen/spearmen (arranged in schiltron) at a certain distance, which they had to keep for fear of the Scottish knights and archers. But once the Scottish knights and most of the archers had been driven off by the English knights, the Welshmen were able to close to a much shorter distance and at that point apparently found their arrows penetrating quite easily, which allowed them to thin out the Scottish ranks enough for the English knights to move back in and finish the job. It should be stressed that from what I remember, this was a very short distance indeed.
    The Scots at Falkirk were not fully armored, most probably weren't armored at all, so the archers could pick their targets and aim at people and parts of people that were not armored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    I also recently had a flick through an Osprey book on the subject of the longbow, which mentioned tests run by the English Warbow Society using longbows crafted to the specifications we have on medieval longbows. The EWS don't usually partake in the use of medieval bows and are quick to distance themselves from that misconception, but on this occasion they apparently did give them a try and found that a bodkin arrow fired from a longbow penetrated absolutely anything put in front of it; mail, plate, padding, leather and the combination of all of these a medieval warrior would've worn. The findings they reported were that absolutely nothing was immune to a bodkin fired directly from a longbow beneath a certain range.
    Propaganda and falsified/biased testing;


    Geoffory Le Baker(1340s); "Our bowmen of the vanguard stood safely in the marsh, lest the horsemen should attack them, yet even so those did prevail there somewhat. For the horsemen, as has been said, had the special purpose of overrunning the archers, and of protecting their army from the arrows. Standing near their own men they faced the archers with their chests so solidly protected with plate and mail and leather shields, that the arrows were either fended off directly or broken in pieces by the hard objects or were diverted upwards."

    Gentleman from Yelves (Elvas), "An arrow, where it finds no armor, pierces as deeply as a crossbow. ... For the most part when they strike upon an armor, they break at the place where they are bound together. Those of cane split and pierce a coat of mail, causing more injury than the other."

    Battle of Byland (1322), Scrymgeour, Robert the Bruce's standard bearer, took a longbow arrow in the arm that did no harm because of his mail hauberk. During the Battles of Dupplin Moor (1332) and Halidon Hill (1333), the English
    longbowmen inflicted few casualties because of Scottish armour but caused great disorder by attacking the faces and heads of their foes, many of whom were either not wearing helmets or did not have visors.

    Chronicon Colmariense (1398), the author states that men at arms wore "...an iron shirt, woven from iron rings, through which no arrow fired from a bow could cause injury."


    This is mail, coat of plates and early plate, later hardened plate was practically arrowproof;

    Named French knights/nobles who participated in the frontal(meaning that they were in the actual...front line) charge at Agincourt and are reported as casualties;

    Jacques de Châtillon - died while fighting in melee against the English man at arms
    David de Rambures - survived the arrow volleys and later captured while fighting the English in melee, murdered as a prisoner of war
    Guichard Dauphin - died while fighting in melee against the English man at arms
    Antoine of Burgundy - participated in the secondary charge, survived the arrows storm, fought in melee, captured and later murdered as prisoner of war
    Jean I, Duke of Alençon - survived the arrow storm completely unharmed, fought his way to king Henry himself, killed four of king Henrys bodyguards while trying to kill king Henry, died while fighting other bodyguards
    Edward III, Duke of Bar - died while fighting in melee against the English man at arms
    Philip II, Count of Nevers - died while fighting in melee against the English man at arms
    Frederick I, Count of Vaudémont - died while fighting in melee against the English man at arms
    Robert of Bar, Count of Marle and Soissons - captured during the melee against the English, later murdered as a prisoner of war
    John VI, Count of Roucy - died while fighting in melee against the English man at arms
    Waleran III, Count of Ligny - captured during the melee against the English, later murdered as a prisoner of war
    Edward II, Count of Grandpré - captured during the melee against the English
    Henry II, Count of Blâmont - captured during the melee against the English
    Jean de Montaigu, Archbishop of Sens - captured during the melee against the English
    John of Bar - captured during the melee against the English, later murdered as a prisoner of war
    Jean I de Croÿ - died in close melee while fighting against Henry's bodyguards while trying to capture king Henry, he managed to hit Henry with a mace to the face
    Jean de Béthune - captured during the melee against the English
    Jan I van Brederode - captured during the melee against the English, later murdered as a prisoner of war

    These men were at the front of the front during the assaults, about 100 000 to 200 000 longbow war arrows were launched their way, none died from an arrow.


    The vast majority of casualties during those battles were during the melee, even at Crecy, 1542 of the aprox. 2000 deceased "knights" died at the English front line.


    High quality plate armor became so resiliant that shooting it with bows and crossbows became useless and its protective power was firstly shown in the sources of the Hussite wars, where the wagon soldiers firing their firearms were instructed to fire upon the knights horses instead of the riders themselves even at such a short range.

    One could argue that they did so to preserve the knights life in order to get ransom, but that argument would be wrong, they did not (usually) take prisoners but would engage and kill the knights by swarming them on foot.


    They shot the horses because they could not rely on their firearms to penetrate the knights armor, this is a late 15th century example of a breastplate surviving a musketball barage;




    I apologize from slightly copy pasting my thread post from another subforum, but I found it justified.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    Are these axes accurate?
    Dear God no, this is a proper two handed axe;



    You have to be able to wield the thing properly so the head has to be light;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrxKLNiW8hQ
    Last edited by +Marius+; August 26, 2015 at 05:27 PM.

  18. #178

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    i think this is probably the line where we have to remember this is a game that cant simulate everything 100% realistically therefore compromises must be made

  19. #179
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I agree but that's the main problem with SSHIP: find the right balance between gameplay and historical accuracy

    Anyway, Regarding the posts above, I think that arrows weren't that efficient against armors in the general meaning of the word. However, I also think that depending on the distance from shooting and the kind of bows and arows, it could cause more or less damages. Unfortunately, that something we can't show in the game. I still not sure what the best way to represent that fact is

    Regarding the 2 handed sword, the earliest record of the use of such weapon (I could find) is from the 13th century but it was mostly used between the 14th (around 1350 AD) and the 16th (around 1550 AD) centuries.

    The pic of axes posted by Marius Marich is correct (depending on some changes). It was originally a viking axe later on (from the 11th century) adopted by various European factions. The other one is not accurate at all (the one asked by Boogie Knight). From the 13th and 14th centuries, axe variations were sparths, bardiches and Poleaxes.
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  20. #180
    Boogie Knight's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Don't apologise for copypasting from another of your posts, the information was hugely helpful and informative. Many thanks!

    Having read all that, I do have a few more questions if you're still willing.

    1) Were the armies of England and other heavy longbow/vertical bow-using armies faced with enough un- or lightly-armoured opponents to justify the heaviest of ratio differences between archers and other combatants (melee/cavalry/artillery etc.)? Agincourt might not be a hugely typical example, but compositions of that nature (4:1 archers:men-at-arms) do appear in a few other places. Were the armies they faced really that vulnerable to arrow fire?

    2) Were padded jackets really so good against arrows? As I say, my understanding of Falkirk was that, once they'd closed within a certain distance, the Welsh and English archers found themselves able to pierce the jackets of the Scottish spear/pikemen, who were wearing padded woollen coats. At the longer distance this protection had foiled the archers. However I can't find a source on this (I can find scant information about the battle itself anywhere) so I can't go back and check it.

    3) Was the reason for the mass adoption of the crossbow and firearms not largely (but by no means solely) to do with the ease with which men could be taught to use them compared with the difficulty of mastering the longbow? That's what I've consistently read/heard on the subject, that this was the reason - as important as the improved penetrative power of both - for the change.

    I'm sure there are others but I'll leave it there for now. Any info or sources you can provide would be hugely helpful! Thank you again!

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