UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[jurcek1987]

Or we can do something similar to the Siphonatores. That means they're available from the start but after an event, they can only be retrained in some settlements.

I think it should be the opposite. As you know, the loss of Anatolia deprived the ERE of their main recruiting grounds for soldiers. In Anatolian Principalities mod, the Romans can train mostly militia plus a very limited number of professional units, but after you have 25 regions or more an event pops up (I think it's called thematic armies) which unlocks other higher tier units. I believe something like this would be perfect for SSHIP. The event could be called Komnenian restoration and text would say that the player managed to undo the damage Empire suffered after Manzikert or something along that line.

[umbracatervae777]

Attachment 328334
Look at this wonderful image...in the next version it will have the norse war cleric? Are they historical?

cool, but i doubt that armor is historical accurate

[umbracatervae777]

i found nice unit textures for Poland, perhaps it is free to use
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?359554-Polished-Poland/page5&highlight=polished
check latest page for download link

[MWY]

"the men who were carrying the menaulia (menaulatoi, sing. menaulatos) were deployed behind the battle line and were only ordered to advance in front before the enemy cavalry charge."

Wiki says the were ordered infront before an enemy cavalry charge, not after it. Anyways, I think switching them to the heavy mail event is a good idea. I also like the idea of jurcek.

Polish units look good, altough we could only use several of them due to the late starting date I think.

[jurcek1987]

"the men who were carrying the menaulia (menaulatoi, sing. menaulatos) were deployed behind the battle line and were only ordered to advance in front before the enemy cavalry charge."

Wiki says the were ordered infront before an enemy cavalry charge, not after it.

Yes, but their role changed over the years. Here is a better source than wiki:
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/menavlion.htm

Key part:
Later the role was to reinforce – at the last moment- the line of heavy infantry but not from the rear, but as the front rank. Presumably, the longer spears of the heavy infantry would partially cover the menavlatoi.
Another role was to plug any normal gaps between formations and stop incursions of cavalry, and also to plug potentially catastrophic gaps forced by the enemy; another was skirmishing.
All roles for only the best most independent self-possessed, self-motivated, fit and mobile, highly trained professionals. All NCO material, at least.
Having reviewed the evidence, I personally feel the menavlion is a sort of polearm, (not to be thrown).

They should be an elite light infantry, armed with a short heavy spear and a shield. They would have anti-cavalry and AP bonuses. Their spears weren't really effective against armour, but they were trained to kill armoured horses by stabbing them in vulnerable parts like their bellies, the only way to simulate this in M2 is to give them ap bonus.

[MWY]

Hm okay. In addition to that, probably high defense skill values and low attack values. So they would most likely loose against enemy heavy infantry. Sounds like a good specialist unit.

[jurcek1987]

Hm okay. In addition to that, probably high defense skill values and low attack values. So they would most likely loose against enemy heavy infantry. Sounds like a good specialist unit.

Yes that would be fine. High defense skill but not too much armour because it would impede their mobility (they had to swiftly react to enemy cavalry incursions), with high stamina and morale. Much smaller unit size than Skoutatoi, about 100-120. And I think it would be more realistic if they held their spears two-handed, with a small shield attached to their arm (like Scholarii).

[Lifthrasir]

I like the concept but would you, for example, have England (or France or Germany or anyone) be able to recruit Highlanders if they capture Scotland? Would the Crusader States, Georgia or ERE be able to recruit Ghulams if they captured Egypt? Seems to me like some units would no longer exist if their home region was captured, or at least would only exist as rebels and wouldn't support an occupying force. Although I am happy to hear examples of factions who did that IRL.

For Highlanders, it depends if you consider them as specific Scottish unit or not.
regarding example, there are records mentioning Muslims fighting on the same side as the Franks (or Crusaders). On contrary, there are also records mentioning Franks Knights fighting for Muslims.

I think the current AOR system covers most of the units which would be recruited from a specific area - my preference would be to force factions to build their own military infrastructure before they can recruit, similar to RTR, thus showing the time, effort and money which must be devoted to being able to raise new armies in occupied territory.

By AOR, I mean exactly that. Basically, it's not because you conquier a region that you get automatically access to its units. That means that you will need to assimilate that region before to be able to get these local units. The RTR system is quite good. It has been adapted to M2TW engine in De Bello Mundi mod. It might be interesting to add a "happiness factor" in the equation (if you see what I mean). Below a certain level of happiness or under a cedrtain level of unrest, you're not able to recruit these local units anymore.

I think it should be the opposite. As you know, the loss of Anatolia deprived the ERE of their main recruiting grounds for soldiers. In Anatolian Principalities mod, the Romans can train mostly militia plus a very limited number of professional units, but after you have 25 regions or more an event pops up (I think it's called thematic armies) which unlocks other higher tier units. I believe something like this would be perfect for SSHIP. The event could be called Komnenian restoration and text would say that the player managed to undo the damage Empire suffered after Manzikert or something along that line.

Yes, but what's the point of using an outdated unit? For example (a bit extreme but that reflects what I want to explain), France is conquiering Rome. Would the French start recruiting Legionaries, Asttati or Princeps?
I need to make more researches but I haven't found any record of the use of Menaulatoi after the 12th century.

[achilles-91]

What about an complete AOR system? Except for elite or very specific units, all factions should be able to recruit most of the units but only restricted to the area where they are.
It's illogical for example that a Muslim faction invading northern Europe can recruit Camels up there. On contrary, it's a bit strange that CS can recruit Euopean peasants in Middle East or Scots are able to recruit Highlanders in any castle
I know that it would be a huge work to do but it would also be more logical and realistic.

This would be so great... but is this actualy possible to be done?it would require lot, lot, lot of time

[jurcek1987]

Yes, but what's the point of using an outdated unit? For example (a bit extreme but that reflects what I want to explain), France is conquiering Rome. Would the French start recruiting Legionaries, Asttati or Princeps?
I need to make more researches but I haven't found any record of the use of Menaulatoi after the 12th century.

That's why I said in one of my previous posts, that it would probably be best if they were removed. Although I wouldn't call these units outdated, Nikephorean Roman armies of 10th and early 11th century were more advanced than 12th century Komnenian armies. The decline in quality is mostly the result of logistical problems and short sighted Emperors like Constantine Doukas, who disbanded most of the army and replaced them with mercenaries. Menaulatoi could be included as a what if unit ("...a wise and capable Emperor could very well raise them in effective numbers.")

[Lifthrasir]

This would be so great... but is this actualy possible to be done?it would require lot, lot, lot of time

I know but it can be done, slowly but surely

That's why I said in one of my previous posts, that it would probably be best if they were removed. Although I wouldn't call these units outdated, Nikephorean Roman armies of 10th and early 11th century were more advanced than 12th century Komnenian armies. The decline in quality is mostly the result of logistical problems and short sighted Emperors like Constantine Doukas, who disbanded most of the army and replaced them with mercenaries. Menaulatoi could be included as a what if unit ("...a wise and capable Emperor could very well raise them in effective numbers.")

That's correct but by outdated, I was meaning not used anymore. There was nothing relevant to their skills/equipment. From my opinion, making them available only during a certain period and then only for training in some areas would reflect both, history and "what if..."

Edit: Unit list updated.

[j.a.luna]

In the current list for units removed i will quit monster ribault for venezians and launcher(cohetes) for mongols... They appear about s.XIII and its interesting weapons... And late fireguns for sship would be handgunners( primitives fireguns with an armoured soldier) as maxime arquebusiers,not musketers... All this about fire weapons
Do you agree? Or removed other units fire weapons?

[jurcek1987]

Fyrd spearmen is one of those units that should be slowly phased out as the game progresses.

[Dekhatres]

remove all chivalric knights, and give feudal knights full plate upgrade, or remove atleast 2 of them

curently there is:

French Chivalric Knights
Dismounted E Chivalric Knights
Chivalric Knights
Dismounted Chivalric Knights

way too many of them

also

Dismounted English Knights
Dismounted Noble Knights
Dismounted Portuguese Knights
Dismounted Gothic Knights
Templar Guard

they are basically all the same, plate armored 2 handed knights, they should all share the same model, with armor pieces from both milanese and gothic armors, this way you save a lot of space while esentially not deleting any units from the factions, and they will fit all factions

[jurcek1987]

(Sorry, slightly off topic)
More accurate ERE unit names:
Contaratoi -> Kontaratoi
Scoutatoi -> Skoutatoi
Scoutatoi Swordsmen -> Spathatoi
Castrophilakae -> Kastrophylakes
Acontistae -> Akontistai
Acritae -> Akritai
Toxotae -> Toxotai
Varangian Guard -> Varangoi Hetaireia or Varangoi Pelekyphoroi
Latinikon -> Latinikoi
Skythikon -> Skythikoi
Cavalarii -> Hippotoxotai
Athanatoi -> Hetaireia Basilike

[MWY]

@Dekhrates: Yep, currently some of those could be combined or cut.

Gothic knights f.e. could not share the model with templar guard. That would look bad one way or the other. Also, most of the knight units won't actually be deleted, but I plan to make some aor variations of the knights based on different weapons that were common at this time.

f.e. dismounted mailed knights get 3 variations: 2h axe, axe, and sword.

we cut german and french feudal knights, but add another axe variation.

I think deleting all the varations would make things pretty boring in europe.

Still we need to look out for what we can actually merge with what.



@Jurcek: Sounds reasonable.. Got some sources? And opinions of others on this?

[achilles-91]

i agree about jurcek. Units should be called liek that. But that is not some major problem
@ MWY that was what I am thinking for long time. I was just scared of suggesting that, cause i thiught u wont like idea. But i think variations would make things great!

[Dekhatres]

@Dekhrates: Yep, currently some of those could be combined or cut.

Gothic knights f.e. could not share the model with templar guard. That would look bad one way or the other. Also, most of the knight units won't actually be deleted, but I plan to make some aor variations of the knights based on different weapons that were common at this time.

f.e. dismounted mailed knights get 3 variations: 2h axe, axe, and sword.

we cut german and french feudal knights, but add another axe variation.

I think deleting all the varations would make things pretty boring in europe.

Still we need to look out for what we can actually merge with what.



@Jurcek: Sounds reasonable.. Got some sources? And opinions of others on this?

look bad ? i don't see how is that possible, i was just looking at some units and Broken Lances (without pugrades) are exactly what i meant, they wear diferent helmets, some have sallets some bascinets and so on, you can just use the model of that unit, give it a poleaxe and rename it to Late Foot Knights or something and share with most NE factions, aditionally you can add heraldic colors on some of them to make them more faction specific kinda, making this unit wont take away from variations because as i said all these units are already esentially all the same, they only have slightly diferent stats

i agree with the renaming jurceck1987 proposed

[Lifthrasir]

Some infos about ERE units:

The scholai, athanatoi and exkoubitoi are not mentioned in the reigns of the immediate successors of Alexos I (dead in 1118 AD).

(...)One type of spear, the menaulion, is described in detail; it was very thick, taken whole from young oak or cornel saplings and capped by a long blade (45—50 cm), for use by especially strong infantrymen (called Menaulatoi after their weapon) against enemy - an excellent example of a weapon and a type of specialized soldier developed for a specific tactical role.

I've also found some good stuff about the Byzantine army between 1080 and 1453. I just need to put everything in order before to post. It will probably takes several posts as the document is quite long.

Edit: about Byzantine cavalry:

A cavalryman termed a koursor (pi. koursores) is described in 11th century and earlier military writings.
The name derives from the Latin term cursarius meaning 'raider' (from cursus: course, line of advance, running, speed, zeal) and is believed to be the etymological root of term hussar, used for a later cavalry type. The koursor had a defined tactical role but may or may not have been an officially defined cavalry type. Koursores were mobile close-combat cavalry and may be considered as being drawn from the more lightly equipped kataphraktoi. The koursores were primarily intended to engage enemy cavalry and were usually placed on the flanks of the main battle line. Those on the left wing, termed defensores, were placed to defend that flank from enemy cavalry attack, whilst the cavalry placed on the right wing, termed prokoursatores, were intended to attack the enemy's flank. Cavalry on detached duty, such as scouting or screening the main army, were also called prokoursatores. It is thought that this type of cavalry were armed identically to the heavy kataphraktoi but were armoured more lightly, and were mounted on lighter, swifter horses. Being relatively lightly equipped they were more suited to the pursuit of fleeing enemies than the heavyweight kataphraktoi. In the Komnenian period, the more heavily equipped of the kataphraktoi were often segregated to create formations of "picked lancers," presumably the remainder, being more lightly equipped, provided the koursores. A type of cavalry, differentiated from both horse archers and those with the heaviest armour, is referred to by Kinnamos in 1147 as forming a sub-section of a Byzantine army array; they are described as "those who rode swift horses", it would appear that these were the koursores.

However, I have to look for sources to see if they were still used after the mid 12th century.

[MWY]

I've found something about the middle eastern counterpart of the siphonatores, the naffatun. Currently they're available after the CANNONS event to fatimids, zengids and rum.

Historically, they were part of the abbasid forces, mentioned in the 9th and 12th century according to wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_...dad_%281157%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

So they should probably be a abbasid only unit, also pretty rare and not widely available in my opinion.