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Thread: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

  1. #81
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Thanks achilles-91 but I think for now it might be better to post a list here with the removed units and added ones. It can be a backbone for further development. So people can see and discuss about it. Meanwhile, I'll do my best to update the list regularly according to the discussion. Just a quick remind: SSHIP wants to be historically accurate. So, please, don't mention funny units or in general any unit without good historical sources. Thanks in advance.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    to remove : Tercio pikemen, Aventuros, Arquebuess, late arquebuess, mounted arqubusiers, pikemen militia, late pikemen, halberdiers, halberd milita (???), halberdier men at arm (?), lancers, demi lancers, pistoliers, gendarmes, broken lancers, dismounted broken lancers, noble knigts ( french unit, should be kept and available earlier, should be extremaly heavy cav with high charge and armor imo- so some skin rechange posible, i would put them available on 1300 year), musketeers, late musketeers, arbalesters, stradiots, scots guard, verlorene haufe(?), gothic knights, dis gothic knigts, reiters, husarze, Polish guard, camel gunners, hand gunners, sudanese gunners, cossack gunners, dis cossack gunners, royal banderium, hussars, obudshaer, genoese patricians
    EDIT: also, jannisary handgunners, jannisary muskketers, quapakulu.
    I knwo many of you will rage, but units like quapaukulu realy dont fit if u want historical mod... create agulani for example instead, not some ultra late game units that we will never see...
    Last edited by achilles-91; July 30, 2015 at 07:17 AM.

  3. #83

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-91 View Post
    to remove : Tercio pikemen, Aventuros, Arquebuess, late arquebuess, mounted arqubusiers, pikemen militia, late pikemen, halberdiers, halberd milita (???), halberdier men at arm (?), lancers, demi lancers, pistoliers, gendarmes, broken lancers, dismounted broken lancers, noble knigts ( french unit, should be kept and available earlier, should be extremaly heavy cav with high charge and armor imo- so some skin rechange posible, i would put them available on 1300 year), musketeers, late musketeers, arbalesters, stradiots, scots guard, verlorene haufe(?), gothic knights, dis gothic knigts, reiters, husarze, Polish guard, camel gunners, hand gunners, sudanese gunners, cossack gunners, dis cossack gunners, royal banderium, hussars, obudshaer, genoese patricians
    EDIT: also, jannisary handgunners, jannisary muskketers, quapakulu.
    I knwo many of you will rage, but units like quapaukulu realy dont fit if u want historical mod... create agulani for example instead, not some ultra late game units that we will never see...
    http://giphy.com/gifs/CTWWUKxas3RTO/html5
    Last edited by Dekhatres; July 30, 2015 at 07:30 AM.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    To summarize, units to be removed:

    galleass
    caravel
    carrack
    grande_carrack
    gun holk
    Aventurier
    aventuros
    Genoese crossbow militia
    french feudal knights
    german feudal knights
    gothic knights
    dismounted gothic knights
    gendarmes
    musketeers
    late musketeers
    pistoliers
    early reiters
    reiters
    demi lancers
    arquebusiers
    mercenary arquebusiers
    mounted arquebusiers
    lancers
    tercio pikemen
    spanish arquebusiers
    portuguese arquebusiers
    janissary arquebusiers
    jannisary handgunners
    lithuanian arquebusiers
    flagellants
    late tercio pikemen
    husarze
    Polish Guard
    stradiots
    janissary musketeers
    cossack gunners
    cossack musketeers
    camel gunners
    mounted calivermen
    calivermen
    sudanese gunners
    swiss armored pikemen
    late_pikemen
    black band arquebusiers
    NE ballista, ME ballista (already removed)
    NE catapult, ME catapult
    NE basilisk
    NE monster ribault
    mercenary ribault
    mercenary monster ribault

    Questionable:

    Fyrd spearmen
    peasant archers, s_peasant archers, EE peasant archers, ME peasant archers (some peasant archers replaced by hunters)
    Moorish Auxillaries
    Edessan Guard (restricted availability?)
    Canons of the Holy Sepulcher (restricted availability?)
    Scots pikemen (but keep scots pike militia)
    menaulatoi (research needed)

    Units to be kept:


    Siphonatores (kept but with restricted availability)
    elephants (with arquebusiers crew - can be replaced by archers crew)
    Smolensk infantry
    quapakulu
    doppelsoldner
    pikemen
    NE mortar
    NE ribault
    NE culverin
    NE cannon
    ME cannon
    NE serpentine

    Note this is just a list to start the discussion. It doesn't mean that all of these units will be removed. Feel free to give your opinion with explanation and sources if possible
    I'll keep that list updated as the discussion progresses to let everyone able to see the evolution.
    Last thing, to keep things clear, let's discuss only about the units to be removed for now. The units to be added will come after that
    Thanks to all in advance for your inputs
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; August 03, 2015 at 02:03 AM.
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  5. #85
    jurcek1987's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post


    From the ERE roster you could easily remove Menaulatoi, they're only available after 1510 plus they're totally unhistorical, and (this will probably be controversial) Siphonatores. There is no record of them being used in this time period. To quote wiki: either because the Byzantines had lost access to the areas where the primary ingredients were to be found or even perhaps the secret had been lost over time. In any event I think the unit unbalances the gameplay, especially sieges.

  6. #86
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Siphonatores added to the list
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  7. #87

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    First of all,i'm glad because finally we begin the units rosters,it goes well hehe
    I agree with the list of Lifth but a important question...when do you want to finish the game? About 1400,1450,1500...i tell this because your list remove much artillery and gun weapons(bye bye renaissance) and i think that about 1300 there were artillery and a few hand gunners and pikemen( famous flemish pikemen or hungarian cannons and handgunners) and about early 1200 there are some news and articles that says the moors fought with artillery against spanish( siege of Sevilla)
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  8. #88
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    The number of turns will remain the same. Also as mentioned, the list is just a start to launch the discussion
    I've made it based on achilles-91 list and an old one I had from Ichon.
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  9. #89

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Yes, but list will aslo add a lot. I have plan of suggesting and helping importing many units, to have a lot of deeper units, for example turks will have oghuz troops, there will be also kurdish troops, thaqlah, more tawashi troops, aksars and many many more. So it depend if u want longer game... or shorters, more precise, deeper

  10. #90
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I think that it would be better to start by the units that almost everybody agree to be removed such as french feudal knights or german feudal knights. Then, we can focuse on the questionable ones.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  11. #91

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    rip siphonatores turkish kebabs will be missed

    i think Lancers should be kept and as i said before they should take the place of all the late armored cav, like some sort of "late feudal knights"

    dism portuguese knights, king's men and dism noble knights could also be 1 unit

    England's heavy swordsmen imo is a useless unit since they already have foot men at arms

    halberd men at arms removed, there's already halberdiers

    either miles pedites or mailed knights has to go, and the remaining one should be shared with all NE factions

    norman serjeants removed
    Last edited by Dekhatres; July 30, 2015 at 12:21 PM.

  12. #92

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    i think that siphonatores should not be removed...they were a important and noteworthy bizantine unit and it is very funny see as they burn all enemy armies!
    also,i don´t understand why remove canons holy sepulcre,edessan guard or smolensk infantry...why are they questionables?
    i´m still thinking that in the remove list there are many artillery and handgunners...(cannons, ribaults, arquebusiers...)
    elephants,i agree that they should be modificated(instead of muskets,should be archers or lancers and appear before in the game, about 1200 in the middle east or Africa)
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  13. #93
    jurcek1987's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    If we're gonna keep Siphonatores, they should be very rare (like 1 unit every 20 turns or so) and very expensive (because the materials needed for Greek fire were very hard to obtain). Currently they cost 358 to recruit and 187 to maintain. I would multiply that by 10 at least, taking into account their almost godlike powers.

    I also find nothing questionable about Canons of the Holy Sepulchre or Edessan guard other than the fact that Crusaders have possibly to many elite units, at least compared to other factions.

  14. #94

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by jurcek1987 View Post
    If we're gonna keep Siphonatores, they should be very rare (like 1 unit every 20 turns or so) and very expensive (because the materials needed for Greek fire were very hard to obtain). Currently they cost 358 to recruit and 187 to maintain. I would multiply that by 10 at least, taking into account their almost godlike powers.

    I also find nothing questionable about Canons of the Holy Sepulchre or Edessan guard other than the fact that Crusaders have possibly to many elite units, at least compared to other factions.
    yes jurcek, i agree about siphonatores, they should be few and very expensive...this will make them very valuable in the game...
    the crusaders have many uniques units and it is great hehe
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  15. #95
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Just some materials I found about the Siphanotores (from the Great Conflict mod):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Siphonatores were not an actual unit in any sense. Siphonatores means “those that hundle heirosiphon” and as heirosiphon we mean the hand version of Greek/liquid fire siphon device that was used by the Roman ships. Thanks to the secret “nature” of the weapon its self we have no actual information of those warriors other than some recently found weapons and ONLY one picture of Scylitzes Chronicle of 11th century showing a warrior armed with such a device coming out of a siege tower and assault on the enemy walls. What we can assume for these warriors with much certainty is that they were part of the palace troops that that weapon was kept in to palace armory. Also those troops may have the full trustfulness of the emperors and they may be loyal to their cause because the secret of that weapon is still today the only one that has never revealed! Also those troops had to be well armored in order to have more chances to survive a close battle to be sure that the weapon would never fall to enemy hands! What we can imagine is that those troops were not meant to stay and fight for long but to spread panic to enemy lines and break the enemy warriors’ morale. Imagine a siege tower that approaches the city’s walls. The defenders are ready to counter those that come out of that siege tower ramp...But what they see is single soldier with a bizarre weapon in front of his battle mates that spreads a huge flame on the defenders faces!!! People start to burn like torches and the defenders line are in total confuse..The assault troops inside the siege tower charge to the panicked defenders leaving that warrior with the strange weapon inside the safety of the siege tower. That weapon was not only dangerous for the enemies but could be lethal for the warrior that used it or his friendly troops that may be close by if air direction would change suddenly. For such reasons the training with that weapon should be constant. Their armor equipment would be one of the best with some additions. Woolen and silk robes may cover the metal armors to delay flame accidents in case of anything would go wrong during the use of the weapon its self….

    Also, they are considered as Tagmatic unit which means they were actually used in an earlier period than SSHIP (10th-11th century if I'm right).

    So basically, yes we can keep them but as mentioned in the above post, they would be in low availability and very expensive, to represent a remaining of that unit type. Not sure throught that they should be available after 1200

    Regarding the gunpowder units, I agree that the list might be a bit "too much" but at least it makes you reacting
    At last, regarding the CS units, same as above. I have to make some researches but I'm really not sure that they existed (at least in the way they are representated in the game).

    Edit: some more stuff from Osprey about the siphonatores:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A single source may perhaps indicate Byzantine use of masked helmets: the Liber de Ceremoniis mentions, in addition to the 80 kassidia issued for the crew of a dhrómon, ten ‘kassidia avtoproposopa’ – perhaps intended for the protokarávoi and proreis officers. During excavations of the Great Palace in 1953, on the marble floor of one room were found nine iron masks, about 7in (18cm) long, with holes for the eyes but not for the mouth, and with small pairs of fastening holes at the top and in the middle of each side. The fact that they were all of iron, had no mouth holes, were found together, and were very close in number to those mentioned in De Cerimoniis for the issue to a warship’s officers, might suggest that they were battle masks for attachment to helmets. Their shape recalls the mask visors of helmets still visible on the fragmentary 5th-century Columns of Theodosius and Arcadius, and also that of the 7th-century Sutton Hoo helmet from Britain, which shows Late Roman influence. Intriguingly, the passage from Constantine Porphyrogenitus’s book also suggests that the kassidia avtoprosopa were supplied to Siphonatores – the operators of the main Greek Fire projecting machine or katakorax." (D'Amato, Byzantine Imperial Guardsman, pp.52-53)
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 31, 2015 at 03:31 AM.
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  16. #96

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Also, they are considered as Tagmatic unit which means they were actually used in an earlier period than SSHIP (10th-11th century if I'm right).

    So basically, yes we can keep them but as mentioned in the above post, they would be in low availability and very expensive, to represent a remaining of that unit type. Not sure throught that they should be available after 1200
    What about starting with one unit of Siphonatores (which are very expensive to maintain as suggested by Jurcek), you can only retrain them in Constantinople, and set it so you can't recruit any other units in the future? So never recruit any more - even after the Fourth Lateran Council, in fact the council could actually be the trigger for being unable to retrain them in the future, thus making it even more vital to keep them alive and out of melee.

    That would counter their uber powers with the fact that you only have one unit, couldn't risk the unit being destroyed in battle, and they would have to return to Constantinople regularly to retrain, fitting the requirement that "the training with that weapon should be constant".

    That way the player has access to a powerful and fun weapon, but not in such a way that unbalances the game and they have to choose how and where to use it. A similar approach could be taken with other high quality and limited availability units like the Canons and Scholarii.

  17. #97
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I like that idea
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  18. #98

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    The idea of swarbs is good,but only one unit of siphonatores in all the game..i think that it is excesive.. Lifth, you decide.. Maybe you can choose a "medium idea" into jurcek and me idea..and swarb idea..
    For example after 1200 you can't recruit anymore siphonatores,only you have all siphonatores that you were able to recruit in the past(and this unit is very expensive and few in the recruitment,about one unit each 20 turns)because as you tell,this unit is ancient and after s.XII or XIII anyone know about information siphonatores...
    When we solve this discussion about siphonatores we can discuss about other units
    Last edited by j.a.luna; July 31, 2015 at 06:16 AM.
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  19. #99
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    I saw the same record about Siphonatores mentioned by jurcek1987. In another hand, removing Siphonatores would be a shame for the gameplay. However, historically, they were not supposed to be recruitable anymore after the 11th century.
    All in all, I think that Swarbs idea is really good. Setting 1 or 2 units of them in Constantinople at the beginning should be ok. No more to not unbalancing the gameplay. Not recruitable anymore, higher upkeep to reflect their permanent need of training, "retrainable" only in Constantinople and not every turn. For example, you use them during a battle and loose a few of them. You send them to Constantinople to retrain them. You use them again the next turn in battle but you can't replenish them right away in Constantinople and need to wait a few turns to do that again.
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  20. #100

    Default Re: NEW FACTIONS UNITS ROSTERS

    My personal main concern with the discussion is that we're getting tid of emerging units over time. Basically building your roster is reduced to getting a Citadel/Huge town, and then you'll have access to all the units you'll be using for the rest of the campaign.
    There won't be anything to look forward to, no anticipation, no "just 20 more turns, then event X will happen and I'll get access to unit Y!".
    Too many units available from the start, only being limited by building level, means that there'll be very few "Woo, new toys!" experiences.

    Once you have access to everything you know you'll get, the campaign is quickly reduced to simply seeing how large you can make your empire.
    For me personally, that means I'll quickly lose interest.

    I hope this is something that will be considered, to make unit availability be spread out over the campaign a bit, so that new things will be happening throughout the campaign.
    Obviously historically accuracy must be taken into account, but if reasonable, please consider doing this.

    Unit available could also be determined by empire size and development.
    For instance, in order for a castle to be able to train a certain cavalry unit, it would require a Stable of sufficient level, as well as a Horse Trainer building. In order to build the Horse Trainer, you would need to have a Horse Pasture in, say, three villages/cities.
    Maybe higher quality units could be requiring higher level smithys as well as barracks in order to be trained. Maybe a specific Weapon Smith building line. That in turn could require other infrastructure, such as metal mines, or if no metal mines were available to that faction, you could build a metal merchant building, that'd cost money (to import the metal), and in turn allow training the more advanced units.

    Not only would this spread unit availability out more, it would also create more synergy between castles and villages/cities. It could create more strategic value to certain areas with important trade resources.
    Unit availability would be depending not only on the level of production building (barracks/stable/archery range), but production building, historical time and empire infrastructure. Losing access to the villages that breed your horses means you'd lose the Horse Trainer in your mighty castle and your ability to train cavalry there.

    The Horse Trainer could have several levels small requiring 3 pastures, medium requiring 6 pastures and large requiring 9 pastures. Each level would increase the max unit recruitment pool, meaning a larger empire with a larger infrastructure would be able to raise an army much faster than a smaller one, even if both have the same level of castle.

    Generally, fighting battles is the major part of the game. If we could spice up the empire building/army training part, I feel that'd be great.


    Edit: .. Heh, this ended up being more of a brainstorm post, than having much to do with unit rosters at all. Should probable have been posted in the general discussion thread instead.
    Last edited by PerXX; July 31, 2015 at 08:54 AM.

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